Martin Amis: ‘I wish my sister had converted to Islam’.
(Covered in more detail by Muslimah Media Watch.)
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thabet
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thabet
Stupid headline of the day:
Could Helmand be the Dubai of Afghanistan?
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thabet
MPs put through Early Day Motion on American use of depleted uranium in Fallujah:
Last week’s report from the BBC’s World Affairs Editor John Simpson was picked up by news outlets worldwide. While the report did not make a causal link between the use of uranium weapons and the subsequent rise in birth defects, it made clear that Iraqi medical staff suspect that the US’s use of toxic materials in its weapons is a possible cause of the health problems.
The story triggered a swift response from the US military, whose spokesperson claimed that they took claims about health problems “very seriously” but added: “No studies to date have indicated environmental issues resulting in specific health issues.” At no point did they deny using uranium weapons there. However, and in spite of several Freedom of Information requests, the US military is still refusng to disclose how much DU was fired in Fallujah, just as it is refusing to disclose how much was fired elsewhere in the country and where it was used. Unsurprisingly this makes it almost impossible to study whether these health problems are linked to uranium weapon exposure.
I saw John Simpson’s report on a BBC World programme hosted by Nik Gowing a few weeks ago. It was quite bizarre: Gowing spent the entire 5-7 minute slot trying to get Simpson to agree that the US wasn’t to blame. Simpson refused to get involved and simply discussed what he had seen and reported.
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abunoor
Kai Ede, the former head of UN mission in Afghanistan is speaking out publicly and consistently with the theory Ahmed Rashid floated immediately after some of the arrests of Taliban leaders in Pakistan, that the arrests were of people who were engaging in talks and were actually designed by Pakistan to scuttle the chance of an agreement.
The recent arrests of senior Taliban leaders in Pakistan may have disrupted secret talks between members of the group and UN representatives, the former head of the UN mission in Afghanistan has said.
Kai Eide, who stepped down from the post earlier this month, confirmed on Friday in an interview with the BBC World Service that the UN had been holding talks with Taliban leaders since the spring of 2009.
But he said the face-to-face talks held in Dubai and other locations were halted several weeks ago after more than a dozen Taliban members were captured in Pakistan.
“The effect of (the arrests), in total, certainly, was negative on our possibilities to continue the political process that we saw as so necessary at that particular juncture,” he said.
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arif
Viewed as a moderate Muslim who has encouraged dialogue with Western countries, el-Tayeb has outwardly criticized hard-line Islamists, saying the focus on rituals and outward manifestations of piety — such as Islamic garb or beards — comes at the expense of true spiritual development.
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aziz
Holy Amnesia: Is the Bible more violent than the Qur’an?
Actually I think analyses like these are pointless exercises in exegesis. There isn’t any defensive value to such a “tu quoque” approach and it just gives total jafis like Andrew Bostom another chance to spout their nonsense.
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null
Tu quoque is the new taqiyya. Always cute when the sub literate expand their vocabulary and learn a new word.
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aziz
The Obama Administration has diverted a shipment of bunker-buster bombs originally being shipped to Israel. In fact, no major weapons systems have been sent to Israel since Obama took office.
The bunker busters wouldn’t really be useful for Israel against the Palestinians… but Iran is another matter.
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abunoor
Aziz, are any other outlets reporting this? I’m not sure WorldTribune dot com is a wholly credible source, although I am not saying the story is false.
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aziz
its a little unclear. here are other souurces with varying details. You could also interpret this as the US making preparations to attack Iran itself.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/paveway-2.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/US-to-strike-Iran-N-plants/articleshow/5695976.cms
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151
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abunoor
CNN has released clips of an audio message from Anwar al-Awlaki directed towards American Muslims. I am not claiming that Awlaki would never say such things, nor am I usually one for conspiracy theories, but as someone who listened to a good amount of Awlaki audio in the past, it is undeniable that there is something off about the recording. Perhaps its just the audio source or quality, but it sounds off.
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Dan
I guess denial isn’t just a river in Egypt then. Considering that he has praised the airliner plot on Christmas, it does not surprise me.
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abunoor
Dan, my post was only three sentences, is it too much to ask that you read them (if you want to comment on them, of course if you want to ignore my posts that’s fine with me)? I said “I am not claiming that Awlaki would never say such things” so what’s all this about “denial”?
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aziz
I’m not sure what you are implying here. Do you mean to suggest its a fake? That he is doing it under coercion? I dont know your opinion of Awlaki so it would be helpful if you just stated your opinion and suspicions directly.
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abunoor
I’m just saying it sounds off (the audio itself, not necessarily the content.) ….I don’t know what to make of it…I did state my opinon directly.
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UmmYusuf
It sounds very much like Awlaki, but there are a couple spots where the audio sounds funny. “…America was my home.” and “…reconcile…” both sound odd in the delivery, to my ear. It could simply be a matter of quality, as abunoor says.
As for content, if this is the worst of the reported 12 minute tape, I can only assume there is an issue of context and would like to hear it in its entirety.
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abunoor
I agree that it ’sounds like’ him, but there is just something off. Some have speculated that it is spliced together or computer generated (from other audio). It does have that feel, but then again Awlaki actually has a somewhat odd way of speaking in general where he puts emphasis in strange places (to my ears) but like I said as someone who listened to enough audio that I can imagine his voice and cadence in my head, the audio is a little off from what my ears are expecting.
It is also unclear to me what the source of audio is — did Awlaki choose to release this to CNN — that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Wouldn’t he want to get his message out unedited?
Among those on some internet forums who are usually very supportive of Awlaki there is a mixed reaction with many people raising questions about the audio, but others saying, don’t focus on the audio focus on the content which they are claiming is basically consistent with what Awlaki’s been teaching for some years and so other issues about the audio are a distraction…which seems to be the reaction of others here who are very much opposed to Awlaki.
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Naeem
Well, based on what I heard on the CNN clips, it does seem as if he’s reading from a script. That’s the only thing ‘off’ I could detect.
But as regards to his message, as you said, it seems to be totally in line with what he’s recently been preaching. It makes no sense whatsoever for it to have been digitally spliced or what not. After all, why go through such an effort to simply repeat what he’s already said before?
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
A more complete version of the new audio has now appeared on Youtube. I will say listening to that version, it does sound authentic. I guess it was just the nature of the short clips in isolation that made it sound weird,
Allah knows best.
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Fatemeh
At Muslimah Media Watch: Coulda, Woulda, Shoudla: Islam as Rehab for Women?
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aziz
from Floating Sheep: geographies of religion (mapped by search terms). I like the way he overlaid the queries for sex for comparison.
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midwinterspring
I’ve never been big on national pride, team pride, or school pride, until today, when my alma mater really earned it. This victory is part of the ongoing Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign.
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aziz
Text of (pending) Senate resolution honoring Nowruz in Iran.
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aziz
Johan Hari has a must-read article about forced kidnap, mutilation and rape of women in Ethiopia, as practiced for generations – and changing now.
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aziz
Happy St. Patrick’s Day! I confess to finding St Pat a fascinating figure, for doing dawah on the jahilliyat frontier a century before Islam.
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aziz
also, in honor of St Pats day, all links on Talk Islam are green.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Aziz, I always try to make the case that Naomh Padraig was a “Muslim” in some sense since he was a follower of Isa (as) before Muhammad (saw).
Unfortunately it is not easy to argue that he did not believe in the trinity and the divinity of Isa (as)……
Abu Noor (born Michael Patrick Ryan)
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Abu Noor
(born Michael Patrick Ryan)
I should say born and baptized as Michael Patrick ibn Patrick ibn Marty ibn Patrick ibn Patrick Ryan
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aziz
well, the wikipedia article claims that Ireland was mostly Arian at the time, and that its a myth that Patrick used the shamrock to illustrate the Trinity. Theres at least some confusion here. Certainly teh debate between Trinitarianism and Arianism was not ended but rather inflamed by the COuncil of Nicea. The debate raged well into the 5th century and really it was probably Islam’s rise that ended it (which in a way is as it should have been, if we think of Arians as proto-muslims trying to carry on teh Deen, then switching to the new Revelation).
that Patrick was a “muslim” is what I wanted to say explcitly at my blog post but for some reason, shied away for fear of causing offense.
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Abu Noor
From Confesio (Confessions or Declaration) by Patrick:
4 For there is no other God, nor ever was before, nor shall be hereafter, but God the Father, unbegotten and without beginning, in whom all things began, whose are all things, as we have been taught; and his son Jesus Christ, who manifestly always existed with the Father, before the beginning of time in the spirit with the Father, indescribably begotten before all things, and all things visible and invisible were made by him. He was made man, conquered death and was received into Heaven, to the Father who gave him all power over every name in Heaven and on Earth and in Hell, so that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and God, in whom we believe. And we look to his imminent coming again, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to each according to his deeds. And he poured out his Holy Spirit on us in abundance, the gift and pledge of immortality, which makes the believers and the obedient into sons of God and co-heirs of Christ who is revealed, and we worship one God in the Trinity of holy name.
I like the lines along which you are thinking Aziz, but we should not lose sight of the fact that explicitly even the Arians believed in both the divinity of Isa (as) and the Trinity, although they understood the trinity differently than the view that prevailed at Nicea. (The Arians believed that there was a kind of hierarchy in the trinity where the ‘Father’ was in some sense superior to “the son” who was in some sense superior to “the holy spirit” but as I said each part still was divine and part of a trinity which still somehow was monotheistic of course in their mind).
Allah knows best.
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aziz
well, frak
still, it is possible that St Patrick was a flawed instrument. Muslims worldwide have syncretic beliefs and we (well, I personally) cant dismiss their claim to faith. I am very anti Takfir, and in context of pre-Islamic Christinaity it seems harsh to render judgement definitively on St Pat who was after all a member of the Christian faith. But it does provide a window into the context where Islam was about to be born, and its necessity.
that St Pat beloieved in Trinity is probably less important than teh fact that he did preach theism to the jahilliya, druidic remnants, etc.
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Abu Noorq
As I said, Aziz, I like your line of thinking and I myself claim that Patrick was a kind of “Muslim” (so that’s the opposite of takfir).
This is for me one of the trickiest parts of interfaith relations: understanding how to have enough respect for people to try to understand their beliefs correctly and give them the same right to believe what they actually believe that one would want for themselves while at the same time respecting one’s own beliefs about what is true and correct, as well as giving people the benefit of the doubt that a)you might be wrong in some particulars and they had reasons why they arrived at the conclusions they did, known fully to God but not (fully) to the rest of us.
I mean I agree with you that it is important that Patrick preached monotheism (as he saw it) and called to the way of the Prophets, but of course even the pagan celts had reasons for what they believed. I can be confident that someone’s beliefs are wrong and dangerous wrong without losing respect for their humanity and still trying sometimes to see the world through their eyes. It’s not always easy though.
Alhamdulillah, other than in some very narrow exceptions (e.g. deciding whom we should marry or advise someone to marry) we don’t have to pronounce judgment on anybody and it is always best for us to be as charitable as possible in how we think about others while at the same time defending our principles.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
David Plotz has a piece for Slate which talks about the few facts we “know” about Patrick and then talking about how so many different people fill out their picture of him in their own image .. too bad he didn’t see this thread, then he could have added, even the Muslims claim him!
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aziz
yeah – i must imagine it must be even more tempting for you to want to “lay claim” to St Pat, seeing as how he’s your kinsman of sorts
I agree we need to maintain fidelity to our own tradition as primary priority. Still, surely the pre0-Islamic monotheists are a special class. The revelation to the prophet SAW reset the rules.
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razib, murtad fitri
the wikipedia article claims that Ireland was mostly Arian at the time
wikipedia is probably wrong. i have never read that ireland was arian. the conversion of ireland occurred rather gradually between 400 and 600, more of a bottom-up process than a top-down one, as was the norm in pagan northern europe. this was due to the decentralized nature of irish polities and the lack of a strong central kingship.
also, arianism was by the 400s (5th century) a religion of the german peoples, specifically the goths and later the lombards, among whom it persisted into the 6th and early 7th century.
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razib, murtad fitri
i read the article, the arian part is sketchy and unattributed. i wouldn’t believe it. also, there’s not much evidence that i can tell that pelagianism was that popular in ireland. really the christianization of ireland is a somewhat shadowy affair, probably because it was sui generis in europe because of the bottom-up aspect. this probably explains why the irish maintained more of their native mythological traditions, since the missionaries were natives themselves who weren’t invested in overturning the old ways so long as they didn’t conflict with christianity.
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aziz
ok, im giving up
to educate myself, though, was I mistaken in thinking that there were some centuries of major conflict between the Arians and Trinitarians, a sort of preview to the catholic/protestant warfare a thousand years later?
Europe, the Christian Civil War ad infinitum… ?
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Lawrence of Arabia
Civil War seems to seriously overstate it.
But the Arian controversy continued to be an issue within the Empire for several generations. The immediate successors to Constantine tended to be sympathetic to the Arian cause (or at least to a lack of controversy within the Christian Empire); people like Athanasius, the Patriarch of Alexandria who had been so crucial in arguing against Arius and providing the intellectual account of the orthodox position, found himself in and out of exile on a regular basis.
And while the Germanic tribes that sacked Rome in the fifth century were Arian, the conflict between those tribes and the Empire had been ongoing since before the Empire, or the Germans, were Christian. No one seems to have experienced that as any sort of Christian civil war.
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razib, murtad fitri
i echo lawrence.
i think a more accurate dichotomy is arian vs. athanasian. of modern self-identified christians almost all are athanasian, excepting mormons, jehovah’s witnesses (who are self-identified arians), and a few unitarian christian movements.
the arian controversy abated after the death of the emperor valens in 378 at adrianople. as lawrence said the support which constantius ii and later valens gave arianism seems to have given it vigor within the empire which it lacked structurally. after 378 arianism persisted more or less as a “barbarian” german religion for a few centuries, with the catholic/orthodox position indicating alignment with the roman cultural tradition (e.g., the conversion of franks to catholic christianity indicated their symbolic alignment with romans who were under arian hegemony in italy at the time under ostrogoths, though i think some of this is ananchronistic. but the franks were the first *major* germanic polity which went to the catholic side wholesale).
in the 5th and 6th centuries debates over monophysitism were more prominent, and monophysites are still prominent among modern christians. the armenian, jacobite syrian church and copts are monophysite.
all of these distinctions need to be treated with subtly, and we have to resist anachronization based on reformation and modern dynamics. just like frankly i think we need to be careful about modeling the shia-sunni split in the 7th and 8th centuries on the protestant-catholic split
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plimfix
Paul Johnson, in his History of Christian, states that the early Irish monks were largely with Rome on doctrine, although there were some squabbles over the timing of Easter. The monks were reputed to be an extraordinarily learned bunch, but they were also late antiquity’s equivalent to academic hippies – a bit rebellious, with long hair shaved differently from other Christian notables. Dig ‘em!
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razib, murtad fitri
johnson seems to be describing the period when irish was fully christian, by the late 500s and onward (until the viking onslaught isolated ireland). in any, the origin of the papacy as we recognize as the node of western christianity really originates with gregory the great around 600. before that period, including during that of the irish conversion, rome was more equivalent to the rome of constantinople, first among equals.
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Pretty Pink Unicorns
I always find ironic that before Middle Irish, there was no [p] in the Gaelic; his name is rendered in old documents as Cathraic much as Latin pascua “Easter” was borrowed as Casca (remaining as suck in Modern Irish and Scottish). Modern Irish, of course, has nativised the p-: Pádraig.
P was borrowed in from Latin and other neighbouring languages, but in indigenous words P > 0: notably Gaelic atháir (Latin pater, Sanskrit pitar, English father). Also note cict “a Pict” (a Latin borrowing) as well as Cruithen “Pict” (the Gaelic term).
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Pretty Pink Unicorns
Good heavens, what’s wrong with me that I should misspell nearly every word? It’s Cásc “Easter”, athair “father”. FAIL.
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Pretty Pink Unicorns
De-indenting: Incidentally, the group called “monophysites” were/are actually not monophysites, but miaphysites. That’s how they self-identify. True monophysites were never part of the larger conflict. The Coptic churches, which dominate in Near Asia and North Africa, are miaphysite.
In truth, there is no real difference in the credos of the miaphysites and dyophysites/Chalcedonians; it’s a matter of semantics. Not that religions ever needed real reasons to fight like cats and dogs…
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razib, murtad fitri
yeah, the “nestorians” say the same thing. the church of the east declaims being nestorian.
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Pretty Pink Unicorns
Of course I don’t really understand a word of the Christologies in question, despite being able to bandy their theories about. It’s sort of a “Why is a raven like a writing desk?” sort of question to me, especially since I never bought the Jesus-is-Divine shtick in the first place. Like, I can say what a miaphysite believes without understanding a damn word of what I just explained.
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arif
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aziz
Dilshad Ali offers her own, personal take on the Salafist coup at IslamOnline.
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plimfix
Salaams – I’d like to add a note saying that IslamOnline’s education remit extended to the forefront of online networking, in the shape of its 3D Mecca in Second Life. IO have been central in educating SL users about Islam – for people not familiar with the online virtual reality platform, it is hard to explain the different quality of meetings that take place there compared to other forms of social networking. The other major Islamic resource in SL is believed by some Muslims to be owned and run by US Homeland Security.
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aziz
A muslim professor in Germany has decided that the Prophet SAW did not exist.*
I understand the need and right of academia to perform critical examination of religion, but this seems a pretty quixotic agenda. It seems like he’s more intoxicated with his own status as academic freethinker than performing any serious academic inquiry. There’s far more evidence for Mohammed’s SAW existence than there was for Jesus AS.
*astaghfirullah.
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plimfix
A British non-entity has decided that Professor Muhammad Sven Kalisch doesn’t exist, either.
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Willow
What I find ironic is that the Saudi regime is consciously or unconsciously contributing to this opinion by destroying the places where the Prophet lived and taught. The cave in which he received his first revelation is used as a garbage tip. Very soon the only evidence of the Prophet’s existence will be the oral traditions of hadith, because all the archeological evidence (much more difficult to refute) will be gone.
In 100 years I predict that the Prophet’s existence will be subject to as much dispute as Nabi Jesus. And we will have a Muslim regime to thank for it.
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aziz
this is a brilliant observation.
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AA
Thank you, I was about to say something similar. There isn’t much difference between what this professor is suggesting and what the grave-destroyer mentality has been up to for long time.
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cbarwa
Very soon the only evidence of the Prophet’s existence will be the oral traditions of hadith, because all the archeological evidence (much more difficult to refute) will be gone.
I would have thought that archaeology is only really good at proving the existence of things and structures and by extension collectives of peoples; it doesn’t seem to be geared towards proving the existence of individuals, given the scale. Generally speaking it is really the existence of written sources that historians rely on for that and I think the Prophet is well served – certainly more so than Jesus, as Aziz points out; in this case.
Though from what I have read, and I am not an archaeologist, the state of research in that field has now undermined, if not cast severe doubt on a number of Biblical events such as the extent of the Davidic kingdom, wandering in the Desert, nature of the exile in Egypt etc.
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Abu Noor
I honestly don’t think the actions of KSA are contributing to this (intentionally or unintentionally) nor do I think their actions bear any relationship to what this professor is suggesting.
I am no defender of government of KSA.
Why did you post this Aziz? This is an old story and as far as I can tell this guy has gotten no attention anywhere since the original article was published in Fall 2008 and a flurry of mentions were made of it, including here on TI.
Again, I have absolutely no affection for the rulers of KSA, but I think you guys are just reaching here to fit an old story (which was really a non story at the time as plimfix’ comment alludes to) into your own narrative.
Of course I could be totally wrong (as you all know very well.)
Allah knows best.
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aziz
hm. didnt realize it was old – was there a thread at TI? I thought it was interesting esp in light of the cartoon controversies, so i posted it.
KSA is abslutely complicit in its determination to erease every physical remnant ofthe Prophet’s life, so future academics are going t have an easier time denying the Prophet’s SAW existence. This is so obviously true that I question why you are trying to deny it. Its absurd to argue otherwise. Simple fact: historical figures leave behind historical artifacts. Destroy those artifacts, and you destroy the evidence.
We dont need evidence, of course, But we better be prepared for the same scrutiny on Islam as Christinaity gets, especially in eth west. And KSA is definitely not helping.
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Abu Noor
Aziz, see Conrad’s post.
I am not an expert on either archaeology or the actions of KSA with regard to historical sites in Makka and Madina, but there is nothing at these sites that would be recognized by scientists as historically verifiable as authentic artifacts from the time of the Prophet (saw) that somehow prove his existence.
Just give me a single counterexample of a material artifact which could scientifically or historically prove something about the life of the Prophet (saw) that was destroyed by KSA.
I’m sure there is much that I am unaware of, but I think more so there is a disagreement as to what constitutes “proof” in this area. (which is why I directed you to Conrad’s comment).
If you are referring to KSA refusal to permit archaelogical exploration or not being sensitive to preserving sites for archaelogical exploration that is a different issue. I am interpreting you to be arguing that somewhere there is archaelogical or material artifacts which can be authentically attributed (by scientific methods) to the Prophet (saw) which are known of currently and which are being destroyed by KSA.
I have read a lot of historical argument by western scholars back and forth about the life of the Prophet (saw) and I have never seen any reference to archeological evidence or material artifacts.
Definitely theologically there is much I would probably disagree with most on this site regarding the dangers of “holy relics” or grave worship but I am not talking about that issue here nor am I endorsing the destruction of historical artifacts. I am just trying to correct what I think is an overreach in the claims you and Willow made on the issue. But again, I definitely hold out the possibility that I am just ignorant of archeology.
Allah knows best.
(And I truly wish I had not commented on this thread but I wanted to try to make my point as clear as possible)
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aziz
wait, you want me to give you an example of something that was destroyed?
do you not realize the logical absurdity here?
the point of archaeological inquiry is to unearth artifacts whose existence we were not aware of. Discovery of such artifacts is how we learn.
of course there are no artifacts to be discussed about by scholars, as yet. Thats because of Saudi policy.
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Abu Noor
I’m glad I clarified then Aziz because I misunderstood your point. I thought you were positing as Willow does below, that the fact that there were buildings about which Muslims traditionally claimed “this is the house of Khadijah” or this is “Dar al-Arqam” somehow constituted ’scientific proof’ that neutral historians would accept as evidence concerning the life of the Prophet (saw).
I actually think the point about what will happen as the historical-critical method is applied more and more frequently to the life of the Prophet (saw) (including by Muslims) is an interesting one.
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aziz
Well, Im not personally interested in “scientific proof” of Muhammad’s existence because I accept that a-priori. However there are legitimate and valuable insights to be gained by unearthing Khadija AS’ home.
And yes, unearthing artifacts at such a site would indeed permit us to infer more about the Prophet’s life. So such evidence would indeed be “proof” of the Prophet’s SAW existence to a neutral historian. (not that there really is doubt about his existence anyway, this one scholar aside).
But finding a single miswak at a dig site in Mecca is obviously not going to be sufficient to prove the Prophet’s existence, not even if it had “To Mo, from Jibby with love” written on it in letters of light. However, once you start accumulating evidence from the 7th century Meccan and MEdinan mileue its going to be pretty hard to deny that the Prophet existed.
However it will also probably be hard for certain muslim groups – such as salafis – to deny that muslims did in fact things that they like to assert muslims back then in the Golden Age didnt do. Theres a serious threat to dogma that s presented by hard artifacts, especially since no appeal to cold rationality about bida this and bida that is going to sway millions of muslims who flock to the British Museum to see The Prophet’s Miswak, if so billed.
yes, i understand that the self-appointed guardians of tawhid have a mild point on that score. but thats not why KSA is trying to erase the archaeological record – its not concern for muslims’ tassavur but rather concern for their own complex theologic framework by which they exert control.
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Abu Noor
Aziz, I’m not sure I understand how preventing archeological exploration aids the Al-Saud’s in their oppression, but I am willing to go along with the assumption that everything they do, even when they do the right thing, they do for a bad reason so I have no problem assuming the same about wrong things that they do.
By the way, it’s not about Muslims or not, if one is following a certain method, it’s explicitly not about one’s personal religious beliefs…as you know there are many Christians who follow the historical critical method and would deny that we know much about Jesus (as) historically and this guy claims to be a Muslim.
I don’t know why you keep using the miswak example? What do you think would be proven if we had such an artifact, exactly?
Oh, and did I mention that I regret commenting on this thread!
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aziz
im not reflexively anti-Saud, but i think that it is fairly obvious how preventing archaeology in Mecca aids the Saudis in maintaining their artifical narrative about how muslims are/used to be/should be. Some parts of that narrative are undoubtedly correct – my point is that an actual archaelogical record creates “facts” which they cannot control. The KSA regime would then be bound by the facts instead of being able to manufacture them. They would lose control of that narrative.
I dont know how to explain this further if I am not being clear, I just have to accept my limitation in clarity on this point I suppose.
the miswak is just a symbol placeholder. I dunno what artifacts we will actually find and therefore have no idea what their relevance or signiicance would be. But I do know that there would be artifacts, and that they would be significant by virtue of their existence alone.
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Abu Noor
Aziz, I see your point that any authoritarian government and especially one that ties its legitimacy directly with history, would be nervous about any kind of inquiry that it does not control. I think you have a good point there.
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Abu Noor
And, for the record, I am reflexively anti-Saud (based on an overwhelming pattern of past behavior and just based on the fact that they are tyrant monarchs, one of the lowest (if not the lowest) forms of humanity there is.
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thabet
didnt realize it was old – was there a thread at TI?
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razib, murtad fitri
I am no defender of government of KSA.
LOL.
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AA
I feel like saying “KSA does not exist”.
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Abu Noor
Razib, does this mean that you think I am a defender of that government?
I pray that Allaah (swt) remove the wicked and evil oppressors who currently rule the Arabian peninsula, steal the wealth of the Muslims, and prejudice people away from the path of Islam.
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Abu Noor
I feel like saying “KSA does not exist”.
InshAllaah. In historical terms, it has not existed for long and we can only pray it will not exist for too much longer. I started writing KSA because I cannot bring myself to write the disgusting phrase “Saudi Arabia” I mean what kind of arrogant tyrant names a whole country after their own family? And then the people are all called “Saudis,” I mean come on! It bothers me.
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razib, murtad fitri
Razib, does this mean that you think I am a defender of that government?
i mean that you are clearly one who has a particular side, as we do we all. all things equal you are not an defender of the KSA, but all things are not equal.
i think of you, and many of the muslims here on TI, like orthodox jews. fine people, but always important to keep in mind your sensitives are tuned and shaped by your particular loyalties.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
I didn’t take any offense Razib, I just wonder sometimes if there is a misconception of my loyalties or side based on comparison with other voices on this site.
I am secure in and unafraid to announce my loyalties and in no way is the government of KSA, something that I am loyal to, in fact I loathe it with a passion.
Regarding certain theological issues, yes I am more sensitive and even sympathetic to theological arguments associated with “Wahhabism” or “Salafism” (though I embrace neither term) but I do not associate that with feeling sympathy to Al-Saud. In fact I find al-Saud to be amongst the enemies of truth in those matters.
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Willow
Abu Noor I think you’re mixing salt and sugar and hoping we don’t know the difference in an effort to support your own agenda, speaking of agendas. Do you mean proof like DNA? Of course no archeological site could provide as much, so that’s a red herring. But we don’t have King John’s DNA either. However, we have evidence of his existence because the castles he built are still standing.
The Prophet’s house, on the other hand, was demolished by the government of KSA. Many of the buildings he helped build with his own hands in Medina are gone, in some cases literally paved over. Ditto many of the dwellings of the sahaba.
Now, in the Bible there are repeated references to various places Jesus lived and (depending on the gospel) worked. The fact that these places no longer exist and that no tomb can be found are obvious tools in the arsenal of those who claim Jesus is a myth. Watch “The God Who Wasn’t There”, for example.
Or how about King Arthur? Long assumed to be a myth, until that 5th century stone in Wales was unearthed saying ‘King Arthur was born here’. Now his existence is back up in the air.
The “proof” you’re talking about, on the other hand–written records of what a person said and did–is in some ways more arbitrary because the line between history and myth becomes more and more unclear the further removed in time one becomes. By your yardstick, Krishna, Gilgamesh and Hercules have all been “proven” to exist.
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cbarwa
Now, in the Bible there are repeated references to various places
Jesus lived and (depending on the gospel) worked. The fact that these places no longer exist and that no tomb can be found are obvious tools in the arsenal of those who claim Jesus is a myth. Watch “The God Who Wasn’t There”, for example.
Willow, I know you directed this reply at Abu Noor, but since it answers my question I thought I would take the liberty of replying. Thanks for the example, I would cheat a little and say that since it involves ‘writing’ your example sort of overlaps with mine
Historians basically use primary sources and usually with written primary sources the burden of proof is very high, before you can reach any firm conclusions; usually needing at least 2-3 reliable sources. Of course there is a whole amount of subjective judgement involved in assessing the reliability and accuracy of primary sources. Archaeological evidence because of the cost involved in unearthing it and the expertise required in interpreting it, is not open to the same scrutiny and is valued higher (rightly so really given the nature of the evidence). However there are problems even here of interepretation – anybody familiar with the excavations by the ASI and other experts at Ayodhya at the babri Masjid site will attest to this. Archaeology, as a colleague of mine once commented, has become a politicised science/discipline; being pressed into the service of specific conceptions of religious nationalism. The rather tall claims of a land bridge between India and Sri Lanka being the mythical one from the Ramyanana and the existence of now-dried rivers like that of the Saraswati in modern Afghanistan serve as examples of this.
The “proof” you’re talking about, on the other hand–written records of what a person said and did–is in some ways more arbitrary because the line between history and myth becomes more and more unclear the further removed in time one becomes. By your yardstick, Krishna, Gilgamesh and Hercules have all been “proven” to exist.
Perhaps a little unfair here though; there is typology and hierarchy of written primary sources and obviously no professional historian will accord the same value to a verse poem that they would to a government record, personal letter etc. I see what you mean by not priveleging the written word but it is still written documents and eye-witness accounts that offer the bulk of primary historical evidence for us today.
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muffy
Now, in the Bible there are repeated references to various places Jesus lived and (depending on the gospel) worked. The fact that these places no longer exist and that no tomb can be found are obvious tools in the arsenal of those who claim Jesus is a myth. Watch “The God Who Wasn’t There”, for example.
There are actually quite a few places that Christians have identified as landmarks from the life of Jesus. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre, for instance, is allegedly built around the tomb of Jesus, as well as the site of his crucifixion. It’s impossible to “prove” these locations were indeed related to Jesus’ life (just like it’s impossible to “prove” any of the Mohammed-related landmarks), but at least some of them are in fact quite plausible. I’m not sure how archeology could prove the existence of Jesus. Perhaps an engraving dating from the year 30 AD saying “Jesus was here”?
Be that as it may, I understand your point about archeology validating historical texts. For instance, for much of the history of higher critical scholarship on the bible, scholars assume that the Gospel of John was less historically reliable and more “mythical” than the synoptics (Mark, Luke and Matthew). However, more recent archeological discoveries suggest that John’s knowledge of 1st century Palestinian geography is often better than that of the other gospels!
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Abu Noor
Willow,
I don’t know what you think my agenda is. I don’t support the destruction of historical artifacts, nor do I support the government of KSA.
There is an interesting discussion to be had about the application of the historical critical method to the Prophet (saw) but I don’t think we’re going to have it here. I don’t think the existence of buildings traditionally claimed to be the site of this or that has much relevance to that discussion, based as I said, on my own reading of historians who use that method but I could be wrong. As you probably know, one key aspect of the historical-critical method is to in some cases ignore and in all cases minimize the value of Muslim testimony about our own history due to our biases. And I don’t think there is any material or objective way to “prove” that this or that site really had something to do with the Prophet (saw).
But perhaps it does make a big difference to ordinary Muslims to see those sites and feel connected to the history of Rasul Allaah (saw). I honestly don’t know, I have not been to Makkah or Madinah. Please pray for me that I am able to make hajj this year or as soon as possible.
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aziz
As you probably know, one key aspect of the historical-critical method is to in some cases ignore and in all cases minimize the value of Muslim testimony about our own history due to our biases.
all the more reason that muslims themselves should cultivate the scientific expertise to perform these investigations themselves rather than let Bwana come in and o it for us.
But ultimately, muslim testimony and tradition is irrelevant to archaeological items’ existence. The provide a context for interpretation, but they cannot affect the actual reality created by unearthing artfacts themselves. And that gives artifacts power, the power of things.
no wonder KSA fears it. The straw that broke the camel’s back migt well be a miswak that brought a kingdom down.
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thabet
But perhaps it does make a big difference to ordinary Muslims to see those sites and feel connected to the history of Rasul Allaah (saw). I honestly don’t know, I have not been to Makkah or Madinah. Please pray for me that I am able to make hajj this year or as soon as possible.
For lots of “ordinary Muslims” these places — and not just those in the Hijaz — have a lot of significance.
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MZ Shams
Yes Allah knows best I heard written in hadith Prophet pbuh was anxious close to his death that his followers would try to worship him at his grave
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Muffy
I’ve been trying to read more about this Muhammad Sven Kalisch fellow, and his theories seem a bit baffling to me. His denial of the historical reality of Mohammed seems to be rooted less on evidence and more in his personal gnosticism, although none of the stuff I have read have gone too far into depth about his ideas. I’m curious, now.
BTW, I’m not aware of any serious modern scholar of the New Testament of Christian origins who denies the existence of the historical Jesus. You sometimes get “mythicist” writers, e.g. Earl Dohertry or Robert Price, deny the existence of Jesus, but they’re usually not taken seriously by knowledgeable academics, even fairly “liberal” ones. Mohammed should hold up just fine as a historical figure. Of course, Muslims should expect scholars to apply “higher critical” techniques on the Quran and other Muslim sources, which may very well transform the way we view Early Islamic history and the development/reliability of the Quran as a document (which is basically what happened with the Bible during/after the Enlightenment).
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razib, murtad fitri
there’s jesus, and the “historical jesus.” the emergence of the “historical muhammad” might cause some of the same issues in islam that it did in christianity. or honestly, i hope it does.
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aziz
i do too – but i hope it happens under genuine muslim auspices, ie scientists trained in rigorous archaeological methodology but hailing from muslim origin.
And there are in fact many such trained muslim scientsists worldwide who would leap atthe chance to do a dig in Mecca. But they cant.
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Lawrence of Arabia
The Historical Jesus project may have relied on to a certain extent on growing knowledge of first century Palestine, but it was, nonetheless, like Biblical criticism generally, a textual project.
It seems to me that Muslim scholars are already in a position to do this kind of work on the Qur’an and on the massive collection hadith if they were interested in doing so. (and maybe it is, and I just don’t know about it)
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aziz
I dont really think the Qur’an lends itself to a purely textual analysis, because it isnt a amalgam of various narratives the way the Bible is. The QUran is more of a single cohesive work and textual analysis in its case is less abotut origin than interpretation. The hadiths have beensubject to fairly rgorous study over ccenturies. I dont know – it just seems to me that the archaeological line of nquiry is the only source of new data that hasnt already been pored over a billion times.
Even non muslims have had access to hadith and quran for centuries – and the modern era of hypersalafism is relatively new. What stopped western scholars from engaging in textual analysis of the quran in 1950? it seems a dry riverbed.
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sleepercell
You’re absolutely right. However, there are some relics of the Prophet preserved in Turkey. I don’t know that these qualify as “archaeological evidence” (I don’t know what does), but they have his sandals, some hairs of his beard, and some other relics in a museum I visited in Istanbul.
My guess is that some other Muslim cultures have preserved a few of his personal effects, as it were, as well? At St. Katherine’s monastery in Egypt is a letter dictated by the Prophet ordering Muslim explorers/conquerors to leave St. K’s monastery intact. I believe it’s signed with his seal/stamp. I saw it 20 years ago, so I don’t recall exactly.
Obviously, no Muslim nation save KSA can preserve the home of his birth, etc. But these other relics – whose authenticity I can’t vouch for – may yet survive.
I wonder how the German professor would explain the letter at St. K’s etc.
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Abu Noor
This is exactly my point sleeper cell. There are plenty of artifacts that people claim to have this or that connection to early Islamic history or to the Prophet (saw) himself…I do not know on what basis they claim to know they are authentic, but I don’t believe there is any “scientific” basis or “historical” basis for these claims.
By the way there is no claim that an actual original letter from the time of the Prophet (saw) exists at St. Catherine’s monastery. There is a copy of the letter that dates from about one thousand years after the time of the Prophet (16th century CE).
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aziz
since there are few artifactcs of teh Prophet even claimed to exist, skepticism about their authenticity is reasonable. But of course in archaeology, attribution of ownership of artifacts is indeed a part of the scientific method, so I would trust a declaration by archaeologists following that methodology who make the claim of liklihood of ownership.
There is always a scientific and historical basis for a claim. The question is what fidelity those claims have. That will depend on the artifact itself and its environment.
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plimfix
I don’t think you can compare the historical Muhammad (aws) and the historical Jesus by a long shot. Linguistic analysis of the New Testament indicates that it is based on oral sources not contemporary to Jesus – Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, and anyway, half of the letters attritbuted to Paul are at best pious copies. Then there’s the physical evidence – the first fragments of the New Testament date only from the 4th century. In short, there is no significant historical record of Jesus, either documentary of archeological, that is contemporary to him. Credible historians talk of 10 facts that can be said of Jesus with any confidence, and they include the fact that he was born! Whatever the problems you might concede about hadith, or archeology, I am confident that e.g. Martin Ling’s sirah is far more substantially historically accurate than anything in Acts or The Gospels.
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aziz
fair enough, but for obvious reasons the lack of evidence in Jesus’ case doesnt affect our belief in his existence, either
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Muffy
Linguistic analysis of the New Testament indicates that it is based on oral sources not contemporary to Jesus
Few people, even traditional scholars, argue that the New Testament books were composed at the time Jesus lived. Likewise, were any Hadiths written down during Mohammed’s lifetime? Were any biographies of Mohammed composed during his lifetime? The first biography of Mohammed was composed by ibn Isḥaq in the 8th century, at it hasn’t survived. Even if we accept the Koran as a contemporary source (and it would likely not have been formally compiled at that point), it just doesn’t say much about Mohammed’s life.
Also, under your same logic, would you conclude that Islamic sources about Jesus are less reliable than Christian sources about Jesus, since they’re much later? Should we conclude that the Christian idea that he was crucified and resurrected is like closer to truth than the Muslim idea that he escaped/survived crucifixion? I think you’re shooting yourself in the foot more than you realise.
Then there’s the physical evidence – the first fragments of the New Testament date only from the 4th century.
This is not correct. The oldest fragment of the New Testament is the Rylands Fragment, a piece of the Gospel of John that probably dates to the early 2nd century (it could be somewhat earlier or later, however). There is external attestation to New Testament books in the early 2nd century (Justin Martyr) and the late 1st century (Clement of Rome mentioning Paul’s letters). There are fragments of New Testament books from the late 2nd and 3rd centuries (as well as some non-Canonical Gospels, like Thomas). The oldest complete New Testament, known as Codex Sinaiticus, dates from the 4th century (it also contains the epistle of Barnabas and the Sheperd of Hermas), which may be where you’re getting your idea from.
Credible historians talk of 10 facts that can be said of Jesus with any confidence, and they include the fact that he was born
“Credible historians” argue passionately about what Jesus did/said and how reliable our written accounts are. Some are very “reductionist” and conclude that very little of what the New Testament accounts say is accurate (The Jesus Seminar falls into this camp). Others (e.g. Richard Bauckham) say that our accounts are quite accurate. Likewise, our Islamic sources should be subject the same scrutiny.
I am confident that e.g. Martin Ling’s sirah is far more substantially historically accurate than anything in Acts or The Gospels.
Well this is quite a prejudice on your part. Most scholars (even fairly “liberal,” non-Christian ones) date Luke/Acts to the latter half of the 1st century (perhaps 50 or so years after Jesus’ death). Where is Lings getting his information that’s so much more reliable? The Hadith weren’t compiled any earlier in relation to Mohammed.
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Abu Noor
Muffy is entirely correct. Our basis for knowing detailed information about the life of the Prophet (saw) that is significantly more authentic than what we know about Isa (as) is only on the basis of acceptance of the reliability and authenticity of the ahadith tradition and the isnad method of verification (which of course is controversial among non-Muslim historicans (as well as many progressive muslims).
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aziz
and of course lets also note that the Prophet came six centuries later – those centuries make a difference f you posit an exponential degradation in signal as you go further back in time.
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razib, murtad fitri
i don’t think this is a good model for history before the printing press. we know a lot about egypt over time because of preservation bias due to its climate. we know a lot about the roman empire as opposed to the sequent “dark ages” because of the existence of a civilian aristocracy of the pen which valued written documents and canon. much of what we know about the 6th century byzantine empire is very sketchy and based on procopius, while there are more sources for the 1st century AD.
or, to use a more extreme example, we know a lot more about athens circa 400 BC than we do about britain circa 700 AD. what we do know we know from bede, and frankly, to modern people there’s a lot more to know about athens than britain at that time
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Muffy
Interesting points. I know that a greatly disproportional number of our earliest Christian manuscripts (both canonical and non-canonical) come from Egypt, not because the texts were originally written there, but because the desert climate helped their preservation.
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cbarwa
Well, the biggest difference is that we know a lot more about and there is much more written about the Prophet’s whole life than there is about Jesus – the Gospels cover only the birth and flight to Egypt and then the 3 years or so that Jesus spent participating in public life in Palestine. What happened in-between, roughly 30 years or so, is just not covered anywhere, which is a huge omission really.
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Abu Noor
Good points Aziz and Conrad.
Although the Prophet (saw) had a much longer recorded career in the Islamic sources 23 years, it should be noted that we also know relatively little about the Prophet (saw)’s first forty years before prophethood, although we do have more information than we have about the missing period in Isa’s (as) life.
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Muffy
True, the “lost years of Jesus” are quite puzzling, puzzling enough to prompt later Christians to wrote non-canocial accounts of his early life. One such example was the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which, interesting, has parallels to the Koran.
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razib, murtad fitri
one difference between jesus and muhammad is that jesus had a long more magic and miracle in his life. i haver heard that muhammad’s miracle was the koran, which is fine, but the lack of other awesome magical events makes his life seem more prosaic and plausible to skeptics like me.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Razib,
Of course the Qur’an is a miracle and the most impressive and lasting one of the Prophet (saw), but the idea that the Prophet (saw) didn’t perform other miracles, by the permission of Allah, is more a reflection of post-enlightenment Muslims you heard it from than the Islamic sources.
Of course the whole theological concept of miracles is one that requires examination — when one is speaking of a prophet who receives revelation and routinely speaks about the unseen, isn’t that a miracle?
Beyond that, however, if you read the most authentic hadith collections you will see numerous examples of the type of miracles I think you are referring to including healing people, feeding large numbers of people with little food, isra wal miraj, animals having no milk then giving milk when he (saw) placed his hand on them, etc. etc.
Here is an excerpt from Imam Nawawi (rahimuAllah) on this topic:
After mentioning that the Qur’an was indeed the greatest and the lasting miracle of the Prophet (saw) Nawawi adds,
As for the other miracles, it is not possible to enumerate them all due to their huge number and renewing and increasing nature. However, I will mention some examples:
He then goes on for many paragraphs, people can follow the link to read them.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
By the way, along these lines I think the conception of miracle (Ar. mu’jizah) that one reads in some Islamic works of theology which focus on events which are supposed to provide evidence for rational or logical proofs of prophethood, is not I think the best way to think about the topic. Rather the Qur’anic concept does not use the word mu’jizah at all but uses concept like bayyinah or ayah (clear evidence, sign) these are things which when witnessed demonstrate clearly that something amazing is going on — they are beyond the idea of rational argument. Those who saw Musa split the sea knew they were seeing something which changed everything, it was not about some proof for a debate. We can read narratives of these events but we did not witness them. For believers, because we accept the authenticity of these accounts, they move our hearts in remarkable ways, but I don’t expect them to do the same for the skeptic or one who does not believe. I don’t imagine them to be some kind of proofs I could present to you in a debate about whether Muhammad (saw) was truly a prophet.
The Qur’an is indeed full of ayat, signs which point to reality for those whose hearts are able to grasp them, as indeed is the whole material world around us, as is history and the story of humanity. That’s what I understand at least.
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razib, murtad fitri
abu noor, thanks. you shifted my priors a bit, i know have reduced by probability that “muhammad” existed
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
yeah, that thought occurred to me Razib. However, my loyalty is to the truth first. Beyond that, while I may have temporarily decreased your assessment of the probability that an “ordinary person” Muhammad b. Abdullah lived in 7th century Arabia, I prefer to see it as something that will be later be seen as a step along your long strange journey towards a retrospectively inevitable conclusion…recognition of Muhammad, Rasul Allah.
You can be the next Peter Hitchens, the subtitle of whose new book is “How Atheism led me to faith.”
Then you can win write a book about how genetics and IQ prove that Islam is correct and win a Templeton prize.
Ok, now I’ve said too much.
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razib, murtad fitri
that was pretty funny.
templeton is pretty latitudinarian actually. they fund plenty of atheists, just not new atheists (which i’m not).
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aziz
you haven’t said enough. That’s him in the corner.
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thabet
Clever melding of popular music and theology.
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aziz
was wondering if anyone would pick that up
I dont know if Abu Noor intended the reference up above or not…
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plimfix
I think there is yawning void between the entirely anonymous oral sources informing the New Testament and the isnad researched hadith, even though the hadith may have been recorded later. Agreed, the hadith’s historicity may be disputed, but that issue remains contested, whereas the problems of the Gospels and Acts are not, outside of fundamentalist circles. Moreover, the hadith are unequivocably reports of events, even if they might reflect later political issues. At least one of the Gospels is a theological treatise. Lings bases his sirah on Qur’an and hadith, by the way. Lastly, I don’t see how the argument over the reality of the person of Jesus vs Muhammad is influenced by what the Qur’an says about Jesus.
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plimfix
Linguistic analysis of the New Testament = The Gospels, sorry!
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aziz
Amongst all the commentary about the Israeli-US flap over 1600 settlements in East Jerusalem, Roger Cohen’s in the NYT stands out.
This is a watershed moment. Palestinian violence, Palestinian anti-Semitic incitement and jihadist infiltration of the Palestinian national movement all undermine peace efforts. They are unacceptable; Biden was right to “ironclad” the U.S. commitment to Israeli security. But it’s past time that Palestinian failings cease to serve as an excuse for Israel’s remorseless, cynical scattering of the Palestinian people into enclaves that make a farce of statehood. That is “an affront” to America.
In this sense, Biden’s foray has been salutary. It brought U.S. “vital interests” to the surface. It challenged Israel’s ostrich-like burrowing into polices that, over time, will make one divided, undemocratic state more likely than “two states for two peoples.” It asked again the question posed recently by David Shulman of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem: Are Israelis, cocooned, still able “to see, to imagine, and to acknowledge the suffering of other human beings, including those aspects of their suffering for which we are directly responsible?”
Also, Richard has been awesome, as usual.
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aziz
In a nutshell, how the GOP sees muslims and liberals:
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thabet
Pakistani men sentenced to life for burying women alive:
Another defendant involved in the case was sentenced to six months in prison, while 16 defendants were acquitted of the so-called “honor killings.”
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javs
they should also be buried alive.mofos
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thabet
Indonesia’s largest Muslim group calls for welcoming President Obama and condemns hardline protests.
(Via an emailer.)
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aziz
Sayeth General Petraeus, “Israel’s intransigence could cost American lives.”
Greenwald makes the case that we are at an inflection point in US-Israeli relations.
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aziz
IslamOnline’s management have declared war on the staff, apparently. an attempt by conservatives to exert control?
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aziz
via @fatemehf, you can directly ask questions to the staff on strike at IslamOnline on live chat:
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aziz
also, see latest coverage of the crisis at IslamOnline via @NadiaE on twitter.
she tweeted just now, “Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradawi has resigned as head of board of directors.”
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null
Wow, big stuff.
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aziz
Daniel Larison provides an appropriate response to Ross Douthat’s silliness.
Yes, the problem might be that we do not have artists capable of rendering contemporary architects of a war of aggression that was based on shoddy intelligence, ideological fervor and deceit in a sufficiently subtle, even-handed manner. If only Hollywood were better at portraying the depth and complexity of people who unleashed hell on a nation of 24 million people out of an absurd fear of a non-existent threat! Life is so unfair to warmongers, is it not?
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thabet
The narrative of the Iraq invasion, properly told, resembles a story out of Shakespeare. You had a nation reeling from a terrorist attack and hungry for a response that would be righteous, bold and comprehensive. You had an inexperienced president trying to tackle a problem that his predecessors (one of them his own father) had left to fester since the first gulf war. You had a cause — the removal of a brutal dictator, and the spread of democracy to the Arab world — that inspired a swath of the liberal intelligentsia to play George Orwell and embrace the case for war. You had a casus belli — those weapons of mass destruction — that even many of the invasion’s opponents believed to be a real danger to world peace. And you had Saddam Hussein himself, the dictator in his labyrinth, apparently convinced that pretending to have W.M.D. was the best way to keep his grip on power.
Ignorant as well as silly.
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aziz
Obama announces the list of charities to receive his Nobel Peace Prize money. I’m particularly gratified to see Greg Mortenson’s Central Asia Institute on the list – of Three Cups of Tea fame.
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aziz
the subtext to this piece about western jihadis seems to be that radicalized converts are rubes, when drawn from lower/struggling social classes.
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razib, murtad fitri
For the Love of Islam. 31 year old blonde mom. she seems to exhibit the “instability” which is characteristic of lower/working classes (already married 4 times). the rapidity of the conversion and willingness to try and kill the swedish artist indicates another crazy white convert. i think as the N for this set starts to grow someone needs to do psychological evaluation. turns out that ulrike meinhof might have had a brain tumor or something which led to her erratic, and eventually terroristic, behavior. a departure from her life as a journalist and middle class mom.
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razib, murtad fitri
another crazy white convert.
the point of that comment is that i think in the USA black converts to islam are likely to be more “normal” because islam is seen as an acceptable religion for black people. in contrast, islam is not, and conversion entails de-whitification (in contrast to conversion to buddhism or something). so i think the white converts to islam to exhibit some of the outlier-demographics characteristic of “new religious movements,” even though islam is obviously not an NRM.
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razib, murtad fitri
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/us/14terror.html?hp
1) the 31-year old convert is fascinated with other cultures, been married to mexican men twice
2) her step-father is a black muslim, though conventional sunni
3) she denounced him after 9/11, saying muslims were killers, etc.
4) she denounced him after she converted to islam for not being muslim enough
IOW, she’s a nutter. though out on bail it seems.
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razib, murtad fitri
correct: she’s not out on bail. she’s out.
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aziz
NRM?
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
new religious movement , the “neutral” or academic term for “cult.”
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thabet
Glenn Beck is an American problem and has nothing to do with countries or people even remotely related to the ’stans’. Septics should create their own derogatory suffixes…
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null
Heh. ‘Septics’.
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bingregory
Weird, half the commenters are showing up with thabet’s avatar.
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aziz
test
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AA
Ya, something seems broken, noticed this yesterday.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
I know nothing about computers, but I think if you comment while not logged in, it is displaying the avatar of the initial poster, even though you include your recognized name and email which normally would give you your own avatar.
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aziz
the problem was the buddypress plugin – its working now, disabling that. filed a trac here:
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Admin
and they told me to post here instead:
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arif
BTW, I’m just curious, how does an average contributor and reader keep up with the posts and comments here at this site? What are the best practices known and shared?
I use Google Reader on daily basis so I keep up with Talk Islam posts and comments through the RSS at my Google Reader. What about others?
It would be important to know where others are under the same umbrella. I think the old fashioned way of visiting the site to keep up with posts and comments are less effective even though P2 theme is designed for that task.
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aziz
i literaly jut load the site multiple times a day the old fashioned way – i use teh Recent Comments sidebar to stay abreast of discussions. thats about it really
Ive pretty much abandoned my rss reader now that i rely on twitter.
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thabet
Germany convicts home-grown militants.
I seriously think the only suitable punishment for such people is that they are parachuted into the middle of a war zone so they can play out their stupid fantasies.
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midwinterspring
I can agree to this, so long as it also applies to presidents, prime ministers, and other well-dressed terrorists.
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thabet
I agree.
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aziz
Wajahat Ali on Jihad Jane and cartoon controversies. I love his closing point:
As an artist who relishes creative freedom, I resist calls that advocate artistic censorship or pander to political correctness. However, art – whether it be through words or images – has never existed within an isolated vacuum, and generally draws upon and animates the existing cultural context of the day.
Art can be used as a loaded cultural and political weapon to incite animosity amidst an already hostile climate dominated by foolish controversies–or it can be used wisely and bravely as a common language to bridge the divides.
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aziz
and, I’ve got a post at COB in response to Waj.
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AA
I pretty much agree with you.
Kudos to Wajahat Ali, he seems to be all over lately in MSM.
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thabet
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Interesting discussion at Blogging Heads about the context for this violence in Nigeria and about the major issues facing Nigeria in general, with reference to other African countries as well. It features Dayo Olopade, who is a Nigerian American, and Eliza Griswold, who has a book coming out (although not for several months I don’t think) called “The Tenth Parallel” about the historical dividing line in Africa between Muslim and non-Muslim populations.
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cbarwa
that has always been a tenuous and shifting line historically.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
No doubt, and although obviously I haven’t read her book, from her comments in the diavlog she does not maintain and I hope I didn’t give the impression that it is some sort of fixed or exact line. The main point is that there are historical conflicts between different groups of people along these fault lines which are primarily contests over resources but which have been imbued both historically and currently with religious overtones.
To your average secular materialist that will come as no great insight, but obviously there is a strain of analysis that constantly speaks of “Islam’s bloody borders” and would posit that there is something inherent in the nature of Islam which causes wars and violence in areas where predominantly Muslim and non-Muslim populations come into contact.
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cbarwa
True, there is actually quite a good discussion about the shifting nature of this line and the impact economic and environmental factors have had on it in a book of collected essays by Immanuel Wallerstein (of all people) on Race and Nationalism; it is well worth looking up for the historical analysis it gives in just a few pages.
The ‘bloody borders’ thesis is a Huntingtonian legacy; I just want to clarify that it has little to do with secular materialism really (in fact the arguement contained therein is a manifestly non-materialist one). Its application to Saharan Africa is one of its problems. I think only Nigeria could said to really have communal conflicts along religious lines (though these exist in Ghana, there, they are more along ethnic lines). Nigeria is probably the exception to the region in this sense. Course as we know from Somalia and Rwanda, religion isn’t really the driving force behind conflict in these regions.
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razib, murtad fitri
Nigeria is probably the exception to the region in this sense.
yes. there have been heads of states who have converted from christianity to islam to christianity in africa, and it didn’t seem to cause that much commotion.
though i would say that nigeria is a very big exception. it’s kind of like saying “china is the exception to the rule in asia.” that can be true, but excluding the middle east & russia from asia china is still about 35-40% of asia’s population i think.
in any case, i suppose one could look to the yorbua to see how christians and muslims get along, as this group has large populations of both religions (unlike the hausa and igbo who are muslim or christian respectively). if there isn’t conflict among the yoruba one might be able to tunnel down into more detail as to what’s going on in the “middle belt” (though it looks like that groups marginalized by the fulani and hausa have taken to christianity, just like the hill peoples of southeast asian are christian and so maintain their identity in the face of the therevada buddhist cultures of the lowlands).
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Razib did you see the David Shenk Will Wilkinson diavlog?
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razib, murtad fitri
you’re the 10th person who has asked me that
not yet. some of the stuff shenk has written i don’t recognize. i.e., no one talks about a G + E model vs. G X E model. but i guess i’ll offer a comment when i listen (i consider will wilkinson a friendly acquaintance, fwiw).
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cbarwa
though i would say that nigeria is a very big exception.
I tried to think of a response to this but couldn’t, yeah it does sound kind of silly to say this given Nigeria’s scale; but arguably – underpopulated states that operate according to different axis are far more typical of SSA than Nigeria. For many purposes, I think Nigeria and South Africa, are quite important outliers when talking about modern African history and politics – they have certain features that separate them from most other SSA states!-
razib, murtad fitri
needs to be a special word which takes into account large outliers. e.g., “namibia is exceptional” should be weighted very differently than “nigeria is exceptional.”
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Conrad, on secular materialism my point was that a secular materialist would not buy the bloody borders argument and would assume that all religious conflicts are essentially conflicts over resources onto which religion is just used as a rhetorical device.
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cbarwa
Abu Noor – yes I agree about the bloody borders arguement vis-a-vis secular materialism. I would say though that probably only certain strands of Marxists, think religious conflict is primarily a displaced struggle over resources (most modern Marxists would probably take a more sophisticated view); Realists and Institutionalists would probably regard it as merely the outcome of power struggles between different groups (ie the relative scarcity or abundance of resources isn’t the driving force behind social conflict but the desire of some groups to dominate and exert their power over others and these groups take different forms of which religion is only one)
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abunoor 4:28 pm on March 19, 2010 Permalink |
Here are the comments Rashid had made along these lines a month ago after the arrest of Mullah Baradar.
abunoor 4:32 pm on March 19, 2010 Permalink |
I can’t find a link now but I heard on the radio before that Pakistan’s response was that the arrests of the Taliban officials were joint operations with the U.S.
Also, Peter Galbraith, formerly Eide’s No. 2 (before they had a falling out around the Afghan elections) is claiming that Eide is “greatly exaggerating” the level of talks that were going on.