Abu Noor:
…maybe we can pick up the discussion about the Islamic traditions view of government authority…
Discuss!
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thabet
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thabet
Question: are far-reaching political and civil rights ultimately compatible with far-reaching social and economic rights?
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thabet
There’s been a lot of reviews of Paul Berman recently, but none as funny as this one by Flying Rodent:
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thabet
Seeing the response to the thread below on Saudi Arabia’s ‘religious reforms‘, makes me wonder if we will see movements analogous to Ultramontanism and Tractarianism amongst Muslims which may also change the relationship between formal and institutional Islam and the state.
(Yes, I am guilty here of imposing one history onto another, but I am just speculating.)
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razib, murtad fitri
d00d, you’re sssooo european!
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thabet
Europeans don’t think so =).
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cbarwa
Wow, last time I heard the term ‘Ultramontanism’ was in A-level history! From what I remember though the theological arguements soon took a backseat to a struggle for influence between the French monarchy and the Habsburg backers of the Roman papacy.
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Lawrence of Arabia
Ultramontanism: First, who/what would be functioning as “Pope” in this scenario? And in the 19th-20th c., ultramontanism was strongly correlated, politically, with the idea that the state needed a strong, if not absolute, executive. Viz., Carl Schmitt’s Political Theology; or the defiant claims of the Pope concerning his own infallibility in the face of a growing republican opposition to the Papal States (in fact, the revolutionaries ran him out of Rome, effectively bringing an end to Vatican I). Both the political and religious sphere are founded on acts of power, represented by the exceptional Pope/Executive. So this model, if it could find a popish figure, would seem to envision a strengthening of authority to both ulema and some sort of theologically underwritten crown.
The Tractarians were a catholicizing rebellion again Low Church trends both within the Anglican communion and amongst the Non-conformists (Protestants). They represented the extensive recovery of broad swaths of the tradition that Protestants had dismissed as pagan accretions to Christianity. The effect was largely pluralizing in its influence (though one ought not underestimate its defense of hierarchy and anti-egalitarianism), and resulted in the legalization of Catholicism in Britain (and the subsequent conversion of prominent figures like Newman). It continues on in figures like John Milbank’s Red Tory movement, affectionately known as Radical Orthodoxy.
So, within Islam, would this represent something like a reaction against the salafi constriction of Islam: re-embracing the saints, mysticism and various forms of religious aestheticism? And would that result in the acceptance of a certain pluralism that was still tied to a recognition of the need for guides or hierarchs that can lead the average layperson (both politically and religiously)?And forget “European”…only a Brit would ask about an Islamic Tractarian Movement!
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thabet
I put this up knowing you would be reading!
I agree the UM ‘model’ is probably weak (perhaps too European!). The closest to a ‘popish’ figure would be a post-Ummayad/Abbassid caliph — a religious authority who was supported by a powerful (‘secular’) sultan.
So, within Islam, would this represent something like a reaction against the salafi constriction of Islam: re-embracing the saints, mysticism and various forms of religious aestheticism? And would that result in the acceptance of a certain pluralism that was still tied to a recognition of the need for guides or hierarchs that can lead the average layperson (both politically and religiously)?
Yes, I agree it would. Some (western-based) traditionalist Sunnis look a lot like Red Tories, and I am sure that Red Tories would have some respect for this sort of traditionalist Islam.
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aziz
the problem though is that Saudi Arabia already has integrated itself as a religious authority, as has any state that declares itself to be an “Islamic State”. If muslims are going to agitate for removal of government authority from religion, then we have to let go of the idea of an Islamic State – and a Caliphate. Until we do, then we are opening the door to state regulation and definition of religion, by definition.
I may not be understanding Tractarianism properly. Wouldn’t the Salafis be anti-Tractarian? They are the ones who are pruning Islam of its accreted “pagan” influences like the Protestants were. Tractarian-equivalent muslims would be opposed. right?
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Lawrence of Arabia
yes
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thabet
I think this sort of tightly integrated religion + state approach leads to this sort of agitation…
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aziz
also – note that the same thing is going on even in nominally “secular” states like Egypt. This is a good example:
Al-Azhar has for centuries been famous for producing learned Sunni jurists and preachers. Today, however, the seminary, like the vast majority of religious institutions in the country, has been subjugated to government control, a key example of which was Mubarak’s selection of Al-Tayyib—a member of the president’s National Democratic Party—reiterating the regime’s line against the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s most influential opposition group.
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thabet
Britain’s new political landscape: liberalism versus communitarianism. (So, in some ways, similar to its old political landscape…)
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thabet
Ali Eteraz writes about the ‘sharia-for-peace’ deal with the Taliban in Pakistan, and why the furore is misplaced: the roots for this problem are much more deeply embedded in its law and constitution:
The decision was made under duress by a Machiavellian politician who did not care very much for religion, which was why he was so happy to exploit it—not to mention that in the guise of Islam he smuggled in anti-democratic institutions from the dictatorship that preceded him. The subsequent empowerment of Islamist groups; the religious tyranny of Zia ul Haq; and the rise of Talibanization, legal balkanization, and militancy calling itself Islamic are all clear proof that 1973 led Pakistan down a dark and dangerous path.
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thabet
Andrew Browns notes complaints against ‘secularism’ from Roman Catholic and Anglican bishops.
While discussing the criticism from Archbishop Vincent Nichols, Brown asks whether society can be built without myths.
Not even liberalism can be sustained without myth, as noted by Margaret Canovan. That is because ‘secularism’ is really just another era with its own irrationalities, contradictions, myths and dogmas.
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thabet
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thabet
I have always thought libertarianism was a bit of a childish political philosophy. Or perhaps that’s just my impression of internet-libertarians…
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thabet
Liberal nationalism: an oxymoron?
Discuss.
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Willow
Yes. Or at least, if there’s a liberal version I haven’t seen it yet. Typically by national we mean ethnic, and nationalist movements often lead to the expulsion of minorities (for example, the Jews from almost every Arab country in the ME during the post-colonial period), the persecution of minorities, or outright ethnic cleansing (ie the Balkans, Rwanda, etc.) I suppose the US back in the 1770′s was an exception, but the Revolution created a nation. Most modern nationalist movements aim to shore up one that already exists.
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aziz
I think we need to be careful to distinguish nationalism and patriotism, however. Loosely speaking, I’ve always thought of patriotism as loving your nation enough to want it to improve, whereas nationalism being love of your nation to refuse to entertain the idea that it’s less than perfect already. Jingoism, in this definition, becomes an extreme form of nationalism, whereas liberalism (also a term in need of definition) becomes compatible wth patriotism and also the moderate end of nationalism as well. In some ways I am both a patriot and a nationalist.
Daniel Larison had a great series of debates with other academics and bloggers about the patriot vs nationalist debate. Here’s a few links to some of his pieces on the matter:
http://tinyurl.com/3rqjtq
http://tinyurl.com/4xysxy
http://tinyurl.com/3gnynw
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thabet is discussing. 
thabet 10:50 am on January 19, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
I once came across this review:
For my own part (and happy to be nudged in the right direction here), I think Sunnism, which is actually a broad catholic (small ‘c’) tradition, places the emphasis on the Law rather than Politics. To say otherwise, I think, will mean repudiating the entirety of Muslim history. But I’d like to see people’s views and understanding.