Tagged: muslims condemn Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts

  • aziz 9:13 am on April 2, 2012 Permalink
    Tags: , , muslims condemn, , trayvon martin   

    Another accusation that muslims do not condemn: about Trayvon Martin:

    What is particularly noteworthy is the fact that — with the exception of a few Muslim advocacy groups and a khutbah given by Imam Suhaib Webb — no other Muslim organization or leader has made any statement of condemnation, offered condolences for the family of Trayvon Martin or sent messages of solidarity for protests across the country. Worse yet, the response from the Muslim community, particularly the immigrant community, has been silence. As African-American Muslims, we sense a general apathy that has permeated the attitudes of the immigrant, including second-generation immigrant, Muslim community towards the Black community.
    …
    Why haven’t we yet built “true” coalitions that allow us to support each other’s struggles as we demand the respect and dignity granted to every citizen in this country?

    The answer apparently lies in a commonly held, but rarely — if ever — expressed view that the African American community is irrelevant and inconsequential in the eyes of the largely immigrant Muslim community. This view need not be made explicitly; one need only look at the actions, or omissions, of the immigrant Muslim leadership and the greater community.

    Unfortunately, it does not only seem to be the foreign-born Muslim community that has taken such an attitude. It is also their American offspring who have inherited this apathetic attitude towards African-Americans.

    I strongly disagree.

     

    • aziz 9:16 am on April 2, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      to elaborate, yes, I do see a division between the African-American wing of American Islam and everyone else. But thats as much cultural as anything else – I don’t see that much mixing of desi muslims with arab communities either. I think that a beter approach would be to call for unity on the broader topic of civil rights and fold TRayvon Martin into that as an example. But by pointing to Trayvon and saying, “hey you non-black muslim americans; YOU DONT GET IT” it’s just perpetuating teh divide instead of bringing us together.

    • Fatimah 9:03 pm on April 14, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Salam Alaikum. This ismdefinitely true, and no Immigrants do not get it. If they did, they would have reached out and condemned this. But, that’s nothing new to us. Thing is, they wonder why a lot of American Muslims do not support them. And they wonder why,they are going through hard times now. The reason why you do not see African Americans mixing with you is because they know that they will not be accepted. No one has time for the foolishness. We do get IT!

  • aziz 6:59 am on November 26, 2009 Permalink
    Tags: muslims condemn,   

    when it comes to terror, Sheila Musaji says we should indeed condemn. And so should everyone else.

    meanwhile, Ali Eteraz has come up with a suitable salute of sorts to those who insist on collective responsibility for terror.

    Both Ali and Sheila’s pieces are complementary in fact, though you need to read them to see why!

     

    • AA 12:23 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The issue is not condemning or lack of it (collectively or individually), the issue is how pro-active we (the society/Ummah as well) are in proactively preventing such events.

      • manas 1:12 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        We need to help US get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. That should prevent such things, iA.

      • Buzz 2:15 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        How about facing the actual problem. The US hasa its own problems. Transferring them to cover over the degradation of the Muslim ummah is not dealing. It is denial. Not much of a solution.

        • manas 4:40 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Poverty, lack of job and education are our real problems (that we can work to solve.) Sure. We should and we must try.

        • manas 4:42 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I do not think fundamentalism is in itself a problem. They are exacerbated by the things that I describe above.

          USA has it’s own share of problems. The difference is, they figured that it’s better for them to spend their time in their jobs to earn some. Our fundamentalists don’t have that choice.

          • shams 10:01 am on November 29, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            fundamentalism is NOT a problem…..evangelism is the problem…the idea that evangelists have the right and duty to push their ideology on others…..through proselytizing, missionariism, or force of arms aka the Grand Misadventure of the Manifest Destiny of Judeo-xian Democracy.

            • shams 10:25 am on November 29, 2009 Permalink

              the Amish are fundamentalists…..Quakers were fundamentalists…fundamentalism IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!

            • Buzz 12:37 pm on November 29, 2009 Permalink

              Shams, take 5 on your WEC-Bashing. We were not even talking about the USA or the religious right so you can spare your self-loathing American schpiel. The reference is to the Muslim Community.

              If Islam is a superior and just way of life, than all Muslim countries should be just and moral beacons of religious light. Since we know that is not the case, clearly, either something is wrong with Islam or with the people.

              My opinion is Islam is God’s will and absolute so there has to something wrong with the people.

              Manas offered a plausible diagnosis. The same greed that is tearing the United States apart already wreaked havok on these countries. Greed has mostly left a 2 tier society with a few selfish elites and the majority in crushing poverty.

              Something for the US to look forward to.

            • shams 4:40 pm on November 30, 2009 Permalink

              But what is the PROXIMATE CAUSE of a lot of poverty in MENA?
              Colonialism, missionariism, imperialism, the arbitrary partition of MENA nation states to create societies forever at war with themselves.

    • manas 4:43 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      As to Fort Hood, there the problem was clearly the invasion and subsequent PTSD.

    • Mr Moo 7:17 pm on November 26, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Riazat Butt thinks we shouldn’t condemn: She said this back in 2007.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/jul/04/muslimbutnotguilty

      As a Muslim, I have to prove I am human and that I object to people blowing themselves up, murdering others and creating a climate of fear. Why would my reaction be different to anyone else’s? Here’s why: Islam connects me to the terror suspects. A religion is all we share but this link is enough to make my friends, my family and me guilty, as if we are somehow to blame for what is happening

  • johnpi 11:58 am on November 6, 2009 Permalink
    Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Muslim Leaders, , , , , , , muslims condemn, , , , ,   

    Interesting conversation I was having with another moderate Muslim.

    Her point: Mainstream/moderate American Muslims deserve the suspicion of our fellow Americans for having allowed this thing to grow among us that resulted in the violence at Fort Hood and other recent expressions of extremism, for shrinking back from mosque boards and private school committees when those of the puritanical strain among us take them over, for allowing ourselves to be put on the spot at mosque functions and social events instead of turning it around and not putting them on the spot.

    Agree or disagree?

     

    • johnpi 12:23 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Example: The imam chooses to use the Eid khutbah to harangue the non-hijabis for being uncovered immoral temptresses in front of their children and their entire families.

      Solution: Start a campaign to fire the imam.

    • shams 1:09 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      that resulted in the violence at Fort Hood

      that is quite insane.
      something happened to Dr. Nidal Hasan that caused him violate his two great oaths….to medicine, and to al-Islam.
      As a doctor, he took life instead of saving it….as a muslim he killed the innocent instead of the guilty.
      Something turned him into a reaver…..and it wasn’t islamic fundamentalism.

      • Len 1:15 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        it wasn’t islamic fundamentalism

        Agreed. Probably mental instability more than anything.

      • johnpi 1:17 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Evasive and changing the subject… the guy wasn’t yelling “God is great” because his religious ideas told him he was far from God in what he was doing…

        • Len 1:20 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          But you’d have to be some kind of nutter to even gravitate towards religious ideas like that.

          • johnpi 1:30 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            The puritanical or extreme world view potentiates violence. Now whether it does so only among fragile egos or misleads otherwise wealthy minds, is further down my list of concerns.

            That’s without even getting into the question of whether we’re talking about something far deviant from the deen – which we are.

            • Len 7:42 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              You have the option of walking away from interpretations you don’t like. And in fact, this is what most reasonable Muslims – and most reasonable people in general – do.

              What I’m saying is this: What else besides being in a very strange mental state could make someone who hears “all Muslims are required to have weapons training” (or something similarly idiotic) decide that it sounds like a good idea? They decide that just because it has an “Islamic” label on it and that it’s spoken by a person of authority that it’s probably right? Normal people have a BS filter and seem quite capable of utilizing it.

              But in any case – continually walking away or ignoring the fact that you do have these (few) bad apples preaching such nonsense is doing us as a community no favors. No, we don’t have to listen to them. But we’d be doing ourselves a huge favor if we, as you seem to be suggesting, take an active role in removing people like this from positions of authority, especially in mosques and Islamic centers in the US. Because then you don’t have to worry as much about the weak-minded, mentally ill, or the maladjusted acting based on some nonsense interpretation of Islam and doing something stupid (like shooting up an army base).

        • shams 4:07 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          He could have been yelling “I am a Doctor!” for all I care.
          It doesnt matter what he was yelling.
          Some environmental trigger tipped Hasan into madness, and it wasn’t Islam.
          Hasan repudiated his calling as a doctor by taking life instead of saving it.
          He repudiated his calling as a muslim by taking innocent life instead of defending it against injustice.

    • Len 1:14 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Tag overload.

      Anyway…she might be right.

      • Len 1:22 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “She” referring to John’s friend in this case, not Shams.

    • null 1:27 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Are there really people in the Muslim communities saying that its okay to start shooting up an army base? To run over your daughter for having a boyfriend? Even hinting at the possibility that this kind of vigilante violence is okay? Condoned by the wider community? Really?

      Okay, I’ll probably be flamed from this, because it seems like everything in his post is hinting towards ‘Agree’ being the correct answer, but no, unless the answer to the above questions are in the affirmative, I Disagree.

      Every person is accountable for their own actions.

      • Buzz 1:34 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Dr. Zuhdi Jasser thinks there are “muslim” elements to these crimes.
        Granted, he is the Irshad Manji o Muslim Civil groups.

        • null 1:38 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I’m just saying that before we ask the larger community to take some blame for the crimes of these individuals, perhaps we should find out how involved these people were in the Muslim community to begin with.

          Was the man who ran over his daughter a practicing Muslim, who prayed and fasted and didn’t drink, gamble etc? Or are we hinging his Muslim identify on his manslaughter of his “western” daughter?

          How many parts Muslim was Maj. Hassan’s crime, and how many parts political, and how parts brain-snap? 2:2:4 ratio? I don’t know. How do we measure these things?

          • Buzz 1:58 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            I think all anyone wants is condemnation. Americans (stoked by conservative right) have asked why won’t any muslims condemn these actions. Indeed, I started a thread where CAIR chose not to comment on honor killings. I think that is a mistake.

            For now, tiresome an exercise though it may be, I think national muslim orgs should ALWAYS put out a condemnation statement and reaffirm the basic teachings of Islam.

            That atleast will keep JAFIs on their heels a little.

            • johnpi 2:00 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              What ‘anyone’ wants is beside the point. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life apologizing for and explaining how Hasan et al’s violence isn’t the true deen.

            • Buzz 2:09 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              Not an apology. It is a distancing of the righteous path of Islam from the actions of people who claim to be Muslims.

              At this juncture in history, it is the right thing to do. Even CAIR knows that now.

            • null 2:10 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              I agree with you buzz, because there’s no other way.
              But it’s a kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

              The Jafi’s will either say

              • those Muslims didn’t even put out a letter of condemnation! they must support it!
              • those Muslims know what we want to hear and are lying through their teeth. Don’t be fooled by the letter of condemnation. The lone sniper is True Islam. Taqqiya!!

              And restating to Muslims who don’t go on killing sprees, that this is not our religion. It’s kind of like preaching to the choir. And it’s insulting.

            • Buzz 2:13 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              No question. I agree. “Lesser of two evils.”
              Distance and reaffirm. Distance and reaffirm.
              Use each statement to say not what is right with Islam.
              But why Islam is right.

              People are people. Even whitey ;-)

            • Buzz 2:28 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              By the way down, these orgs don’t need to get down on their knees and place these statements at the feet of the american public. I can be a strong, even arrogant statement (after all – Islam is Great). We don’t need to apologise to anybody.

              You condemn all forms of injustice and the crimes of disturbed individuals, Columbine, Oklahoma City, the Viginia Tech Massacre, and the tragedy at fort hood.

              All these actions actions are shocking and indicate problems of violence in our collective culture which need to be addressed.

              Islam teaches us that ………………….

      • Dan 1:37 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Dude you’re from Sydney, why are you so surprised? Remember the idiot Hilaly from Lakemba and what he said about rape victims? And yet there are some Muslims in Sydney who will still err to his defence? When I lived there I encountered a lot of idiots who are such backward tools in the western suburbs.

      • johnpi 1:38 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Every person is accountable for their own actions.

        I’m right there with you, and I’ve been saying that for the longest time.

        But when (true story) a couple of devout Muslims I know went out and all bought air rifles without any previous interest or life experience with weapons and starting shooting up their backyards, are they doing that because they all spontaneously got interested in air rifles, or are they doing it because some cleric under extremist influence in the Mideast said it’s the religious duty of all Muslims to get weapons training. I think its the latter.

        This behavior in and of itself isn’t going to kill anybody – but it’s moving these Muslims in the wrong direction.

    • Dan 1:33 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      null, if you go on IslamicAwakening and MuslimVillage, such sentiments are proudly displayed on there.

      • null 1:35 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Link please.

        • Dan 1:38 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Here’s one on MuslimVillage

          Here’s another on IslamicAwakening

          • null 1:55 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Crazy stuff. It’s interesting that on the MuslimVillage thread its all politics about how evil America is and this is their comeuppance.

            Halfway through the thread someone asked “Is this Islamic justifiable?”, and the answer was a frank “I don’t know”. (And I don’t care?)

            Amazing.

          • Len 2:14 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            wow #1: their views.
            wow #2: posting said views on a public forum.

            Little wonder why people look at us with suspicion.

            • null 2:21 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink

              A public forum is best. These things need to be said, rebuked, debated and finally, god willing, vanquished.

              wow #3: that on a Muslim forum, no one seems to care about the Islamic position on the murders.

    • Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 5:22 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      John, if you really think that this is a serious discussion then I think it would help if you were a little more serious about how you engage it. I’ve been around a lot of very conservative and even radical Muslims and have never heard anything like the example you mention. Is that your imaginative fantasy of what radical/puritan/wahhabi Muslims are like?

      And what does such social conservatism or bad manners or whatever it is you are accusing Muslim leadership with have to do with violence.

      It smells like you trying to latch onto something horrific about which we know very little as somehow evidence for why you should push your own agenda harder. Again, if you really think there is a serious issue, I would encourage you to address it in a serious manner.

      Allah Knows Best.

      • johnpi 6:51 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I haven’t accused “Muslim leadership” of anything – you should be more serious than to assert that such a monolithic entity exists.

        You’re self-deluded if you think my friend and I are the only two Muslims who have had or are having some version of that conversation, Abu Noor. You should engage it, rather than dismiss it with red herring anecdotes (well-adjusted conservatives? No kidding…)

        • Len 7:27 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I just think you have to be a little more careful with how you state this.

          Fostering an environment where orthodoxy is encouraged and fostering an environment conducive to extremist/violent interpretations of Islam are not necessarily the same thing. One can be quite orthodox without harboring hatred and violence. When you say “puritanical”, it’s not clear if you’re referring to only these odd, violent interpretations. And I think this is what Abu Noor is getting at.

          • johnpi 8:23 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            The occurrence of the word “puritan” in my vocabulary has to do with having recently started rereading Khaled Abou El Fadl’s “The Great Theft,” a book I actually read awhile ago but lost somewhere along the way. I’ll be under the influence of his star the next few weeks.

            Here’s El Fadl expanding on the concept of a puritan/moderate schism:

            Although the schism between moderate and puritan Muslims has become distinct, pronounced, and real, this division is not explicitly recognized in the Muslim world. The dichotomy between the two groups is a lived and felt reality, but there has been no attempt to recognize the systemic differences between the two contending parties. In fact, many Muslims have been reluctant to speak openly of two primary orientations juxtaposed against each other within modern Islam. The failure to acknowledge the existence of such a division has contributed to the confusion about who in Islam believes in what, and it may also be responsible for the widespread misconceptions about the teachings and doctrines of the religion.

            As El Fadl writes, the difference between each other is “lived and felt,” and nowhere near exhaustively understood. It’s an unreasonable expectation that at my level as a blogger I’m going to delineate where conservatism slips into radicalization and becomes extermism/puritanism in some comprehensive and final way (though I’ll keep biting off chunks) – and perhaps that would be the point of such a request, to silence the conversation.

            I do know this and therefore I think it is a good place to start: The deviance and violence arises entirely from the conservative-puritan orientation, and I lay that at the conservatives’ feet and say ‘clean your own house.’

            In the meantime, for the majority of Muslims who also ‘live and feel’ the wrongness but also lack the precision and scholarship to sort the conservative-puritan’s house for them, the safe-for-your-soul thing to do is to move into the moderate orientation.

            • thabet 12:08 am on November 7, 2009 Permalink

            • johnpi 12:59 am on November 7, 2009 Permalink

              Some numbers or other evidence?

              There are 44 entries under the ‘Muslim-on-Muslim violence’ tag here at Talk Islam. I estimate just from a quick glance through them that between 30 and 35 arise directly from forms of religious conservatism, albeit mostly puritanical and extreme.

              The remaining entries involve crime and social disorder – a serial killer, gang violence, street crime, honor killings, etc.

              The MI5 report is irrelevant and it’s unclear to me what you think it says. I gather from the context though that you think it’s provocative and contradictory – and the only way it could be is if you equate conservative with “knows his religion” and moderate with ‘religious illiteracy.’

              Is that the point you were trying to make? If so, that’s more an expression of prejudice than a response to El Fadl’s points or my own.

              Religious illiterates and religious savants exist on all sides of the spectrum.

            • Buzz 1:03 am on November 7, 2009 Permalink

              It means they say they are religious conservatives when in fact, they don’t know too much about Islam at all.

              Religious conservatives can know a ton about religion…most of them do. Religious zealots often cling to one issue as their reason for even being associated with the religion (eg…abortion..christian conservatives).

            • johnpi 1:29 am on November 7, 2009 Permalink

              Again, religious illiterates and wisemen are in both ‘orientations.’

              And don’t forget about class in Britain either. Muslims have been held down as an underclass in the UK, and hence a keen sense of disimpowerment and alienation undergirds UK extremism. The MI5 report is more relevant to a discussion of class and discrimination in the UK than a vindication of religious conservatism shot through with puritanism in the larger conversation.

              El Fadl though does speak to this population too:

              Puritanism is not represented by formal institutions; it is a theological orientation, not a structured school of thought. Therefore, one finds a broad range of ideological variations and tendencies within it. But the consistent characteristic of puritanism is a supremacist ideology that compensates for feelings of defeatism, disimpowerment, and alienation with a distinct sense of self-righteous arrogance vis-a-vis the nondescript “other” – whether that “other” is the West, nonbelievers in general, so-called heretical Muslims, or even Muslim women.

        • Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 3:53 pm on November 7, 2009 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          John,

          I don’t understand much of your response. It is you with the red-herring anecdote, there are no anecdotes in my post.

          Believe me, I am aware that such discussions go on. I have been a part of many. But just like discussions on the Black Muslim/Immigrant Muslim divide, discussions on the “conservative”/progressive Muslim divide often consist of the same tired type of anecdotes which are either completely imaginary or not representative of the real issues (as far as I can tell). I have no doubt that these make people feel good when they reinforce their own stereotyped views of the other (and of themselves) but it is my firm belief that they are not helpful to solving real problems. Which is why I encourage people like yourselves who are obviously intelligent and as far as I can tell well meaning to engage in the discussion more seriously, using real non-exaggerated, non imagined stereotype realities and discussing how we should respond to them.

          That is why your Eid prayer thing quite problematic and to me, why it was not serious.

          Allaah knows best.

  • aziz 7:26 am on September 11, 2008 Permalink
    Tags: , muslims condemn,   

    the Silence Libel: muslims keep condemning terror, but no one notices.

     

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