Referring to Queen Rania, the wife of King Abdullah II, [Caio Blinder, a Brazilian television presenter] said: “Politically, she and other piranhas are unpalatable. “All of them have a facade of modernisation of these regimes. That is, they do not want to seem like they are royal parasites nor submissive Muslim woman. “This is to sell to the West while their husbands are there, beating, stealing.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/8454061/Brazilian-TV-presenter-calls-Queen-Rania-of-Jordan-a-piranha.html
Tagged: middle east Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
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thabet
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thabet
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thabet
Who said the current Israeli government hates all Arabs? They seem to adore Arab dictators:
“Having said that, I’m not sure the time is right for the Arab region to go through the democratic process,” he adds.
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Matt
So what do you think the army is going to do in Egypt? Are they still on Mubarak’s side, and under orders to minimize violence? Or is there a serious possibility that they will turn on the regime?
To me, it seems very possible that the security forces in Egypt are being ordered to hold back temporarily for 2 reasons:
(1) To allow people to burn off some anger
(2) To give people a taste of chaos, which may sour them on the idea of regime change and make it easier to justify a crackdown laterWe can already see Al-Arabiya putting an intense focus on the threat of looting and lawlessness, in contrast with Al-Jazeera’s coverage.
But regardless of all this, whose side do you think the military is on, and what is their game?
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aziz
here’s a discussion of the role the EGyptian military could (and has) played now and in the past:
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thabet
Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, and Morocco all see cases of self-immolation in the past few days.
I guess it is not much of a surprise that Al-Azhar and the official Saudi clerisy have both issued statements reiterating suicide is disallowed in Islam.
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Arwi
How recent is the use of self-immolation as a protest strategy in Muslim countries? I can’t think of an example other than these recent events but perhaps someone can correct me.
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shams
its common in buddhism i think.
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Arwi
I should have said “by Muslims” rather than “in Muslim countries,” there has been a non-Muslim protest self-immolation in Malaysia.
BBC article says there were Kurdish nationalists self-immolating in Europe.
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thabet
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thabet
The Nejdi Lobby:
The state department said details of the deal had been sent to Congress, which now has 30 days to object.
Reports said the sale, which could be the most lucrative in US history, would support 75,000 jobs in the country.
Sources say the plan is part of a strategy to deal with the threat from Iran. The state department said Israel was not expected to raise objections.
State department official Andrew Shapiro said the weapons were critical for Saudi Arabia’s defence from threats such as al-Qaeda and Iran.
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BK
Another arrow pointed at Iran.
That is why AIPAC/Tel Aviv ok’d the deal
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thabet
Down below the supposed influence of the Israel lobby over US foreign policy has been raised, something which appears routinely on Talk Islam, especially when Beloved Barack’s foreign policy record and views on the subject are raised for debate (does he ‘hate’ Israelis too?).
The argument seems to largely rest on the powerful and enchanting (and potentially dangerous) thesis put forward by mainstream respected academics John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt (M&W) in The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy. No need to recap it here, as I am sure many are aware of this gist of M&W’s argument.
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Matt
So, are you saying that yes, the Israel lobby may be powerful and exert a decisive influence over American public discourse, but that this has no considerable effect on US foreign policy? Are you (and the various writers you cite) arguing that what gets printed in the media and what politicians are able to say and do both have no effect on the decision-making process?
Two motivations are usually cited for US policies in the Middle East– protecting oil interests and keeping Israel safe. I acknowledge the importance of the former, but I do not think it is possible to disregard the latter.
What about Egypt, a country with very little in the way of oil reserves? How can we explain our support for the regime there, except for the end of Israel-protection?
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thabet
Israel is a means, Matt, not the end. Uncritical US support for Israel should be seen the same way as uncritical US support for Saudi.
When Israel stops being useful to US foreign policy, the seemingly slavish support will stop too.
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shams
what brother thabet ignores, is that in America, our FP is set by the consent of the governed.
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thabet
I don’t think you’ve read my post, or the paragraphs and links I cited, at all. Why should I bother debating with you then?
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shams
i read your post. you dont understand the extent Israel is used as a culture whip to flog the greys here. its dogwhistled like racism, homophobia and abortion. Our FP is set by whoever holds the organs of government. and they are chosen by the people, for good or ill. Bush did nothing but encourage the Israelis.
Remember the Summer War?
i read those, and i read razibs first post on M&W back in the day on GNXP. i quoted the articles and refuted them. see below.
you dont defend anything.
How is Obama’s attempt to continue the settlement freeze congruent with American imperialism?
you go off and pout. -
thabet
Our FP is set by whoever holds the organs of government. and they are chosen by the people, for good or ill.
The US is as close and supportive of Israel as it is of Saudi Arabia.
M&W is basically an apologists book: ‘don’t blame us, blame someone else’ is the basic theme of the book.
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shams
The US is as close and supportive of Israel as it is of Saudi Arabia.
trudat, but our support of KSA gets no airtime….why? Because Saudi oligarchs own a good chunk of FOXnews, and they control the cudlip narrative.
which includes flogging Evuul Nuclear Iran, Obama the Mooslem Kenyan Soshulist, and Saint Israel the Persecuted.
Low information media for the low information base.
That is why twitter and facebook are successful dissemination media for the ‘conservative’ base…all you need to know in 140 chars of disinformation. -
thabet
Al-Waleed bin Talal only bought his shares in Fox a decade or so ago (and even then it’s only 7%). The US — Republican or Democrat led — has been supporting Saudi for a lot longer.
How does “judeochristian” levers over FP square up with US support and closeness to Saudi, when the same “judeochristians” complain SA doesn’t allow churches or missionaries inside its borders? The All Powerful Nejdi Lobby?
(I can think one way of answering it, which I know some Muslims happen to believe, but I’ll let you figure it out.)
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shams
the past decade or so is what im refferring to– the age of that fucking WEC retard Bush. How do you think the War on
TerrorIslam got support? The GWoI was supposed to deliver the capitals of Islam to westernstyle “freedom of religion” with the Bush Doctrine. Don’t be deliberately thick. -
shams
judaism worship is like ancestor worship for fundie xians…and all jews are embryo xians in their estimation…. plus the pretribs plan on using Israel as a staked goat to bring down the Rapture.
look at some of John Hagee’s stuff– he is in bed with AIPAC.
judeochristianity is POLITICAL christianity….it attempts to fuse jews and christians into a common state religion. -
shams
you dont watch American TEEVEE. AIPAC runs bathetic sobsister weepy commericals about “poor Israel” with holocaust clips. Israel is SACRED to a segment of the electorate– the greys.
how can you possibly remote-analyze what is going on here? -
thabet
Actually, since I moved abroad I watch a lot of American TV. I even watch Fox News for a laugh.
the past decade or so is what im refferring to
Then we’re talking past each other. I am talking of decades worth of US FP, not just the last ten years.
So, please explain how “judeochristian” FP allows the US to be a staunch Saudi ally.
I really don’t care about America’s culture wars.
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Shams al-Nahar
but culture is all that supports Israel. economic and military FP supports Saud, but Israel is an economic and military liability. the ONLY reasons to support Israel are cultural.
So you have seen the AIPAC commercials?
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thabet
but culture is all that supports Israel. economic and military FP supports Saud, but Israel is an economic and military liability.
Why is Israel an economic and military liability?
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shams
Why is Israel an economic and military liability?
1. we give Israel aid and get nothing but backstabbing in return.I
srael is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. From
1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, having since been
supplanted by Iraq. Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants
annually to Israel.
Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance. In the past, Israel also
had received significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted
in Israel’s receiving benefits not available to other countries. For example, Israel can use some
U.S. military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. foreign assistance earmarked for Israel
is delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year. Most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. Congress also appropriates funds for joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs.2. Israel punks America at the peace negotiations every time, continues to build indefensible suicide settlements, creates embarrassing and criminal international situs like the gaza blockade, the Summer War, and the attack on the gaza flotilla. We also get ganked by IDF fucktards like Horah dancing Avi Yakabov with 850000 youtube views of him abusing a bound and blindfolded female captive. We have 180,000 troops inharms way, and the
Nazi StormtroopersIDF are making terrorist recruitment videos on our dime.
Petraeus even articulated the problem and was forced to recant.
America is Israel’s bitch. it is an abusive relationship. -
BK
How many senators with roots back to other countries would have the balls to pass around a letter demanding loyalty for Israel. The Boxer-Isakson letter indicates that special manipulativce relationship we have with Israel. Israel is like some neurotic stalker boyfriend / girlfriend that needs constant reassurance you will not step-out on them.
Sick of it.
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shams
/yawn.
hmmm i have read that all before someplace….i wonder where?
blah blah blah
So we are supposed to hyperanalyze veiled motivations like W&M?
America was founded as a judeochristian nation. Like Cantor said.
Sometimes a cigar is just cigar.This whole argument is tedious first culture sophistry. The jewish immigrant population in America has a disproportionate amount of political and cultural power because many jews are meritocrats, and this is a meritocracy.
Holocaust guilt is also an undeniable factor, as is fundamentalist christianity, pre-trib style.
The other major factor (aside from oil interests) is the apparent need of American political protestantism (which we can call judeoxianity) to proselytize …..aka ‘westernstyle’ democracy promotion.
Obama tried pretty hard to extend the freeze on the suicide settlements…..how on earth can that be construed the way you and razib are interpreting it, brother thabet?
Some sort of quantum game theory headfake to disguise his true motives?-
thabet
Holocaust guilt is also an undeniable factor, as is fundamentalist christianity, pre-trib style.
Maybe in pop culture.
Not when it comes to US foreign policy.
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shams
consent of the governed, dude, consent of the governed.
‘conservatives’ demagogue ‘protecting’ Israel with the greys to cling to power.
holocaust guilt is just another cattle prod to use on the cudlips, like homophobia and LIFE! and fear of the other.-
thabet
consent of the governed, dude, consent of the governed.
You have a quaint notion of Western democracies I do not share. The consent is at best heavily filtered and distorted.
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shams
heavily filtered and distorted
no, its demagogued and dogwhistled.
i think from what i’ve read that conservatism is vastly different in the UK. the protestant tradition that America was founded on is distinctly and proudly anti-intellectual.
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aziz
i dot agree with this either. Its the same logic by which OBL says that civilians ind emocracies are valid targets of jihad.
There are many layers between democratic impulse and ruling elite. Any “corrective” act by the governed is by design only post-facto, 2-6 years lagging behind the actions of the governing. theres no realtime consequences for low poll numbers or approval ratings (and this is a good thing, because unfettered democracy is akin to mob rule.)
consent of the governed is a farce. If anything, it is apathy of the governed. Only in times of sttress do the governed exert any democratic power, and usually at teh wrong targets – for example, this upcoming mdterm in which Dems will be rewarded for staving off a second Great Depression by being jettisoned from office, and Republicans punished for their obstructionism by being given more elecctoral power.
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shams
but that IS the consent of the governed, my habbibi.
the majority in america is still christian, white and old.
that is how Bush was elected, and how Palin could be elected.
im sorry…..but I speak truth.
we wont be a secular democracy until the grouped minorities and youth achieve electoral parity with the white judeochristian majority.
we are a judeochristian democracy now……because of the consent of the governed.
OBL’s arguments are all full of shit. Any muslim that knows the Holy Qur’an should be able to blow him out of the water with one frontal lobe tied behind their back. -
shams
you and thabet are both naifs.
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shams
Wake up Aziz…..we are living in Jesusland until the demographic timer goes off.
Here’s what Morgan(hes a brit, thabet) said about Jesusland.All these societies in Thirteen have had to make a choice. They’ve had to decide, “right, we’re not going down this warrior path any longer, we’re going to accept that society’s a complicated thing and we’re going to deal in a complicated fashion with it, the issues are complex and so are the solutions.” The places that have refused to do that are the ones that then suffer horrifically from the things they impose on themselves.
You get JesusLand, actually.
I have to say that I’ve had quite a lot of e-mails from people about this. I’ve had e-mails from people who live there and who said, “oh, man, you’re so right.” But I’ve had an awful lot of people get in touch, mostly very polite, but really hurt and defensive. They say, “you’ve got us all wrong—we’re not a bunch of racist, lynching psychopaths.”
First of all, I generally say, I know. I have spent time in various parts of the United States, probably including where you live, and the Americans I’ve met there . . . they’re lovely people. They’re courteous, they’re friendly, they’re generous with their time and resources. In fact, they’re a lot like Americans in the rest of the country. But that is really not the issue. I’ve also spent time in various North African and Middle Eastern nations and found the inhabitants there to be courteous, engaging and hospitable to a fault – but if I’d created a theocratic state in North Africa, would you have been angry about that?
Jesusland is not an indictment of all the 200+ million Americans living in its territory, it’s a portrayal of certain ruinous socio-dynamic tendencies common to that region running amok, and the catastrophic impact they have had (that I believe, in fact, they are having even now) on America’s very great potential as a modern nation.
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shams
also, too.
when the House whip SAYS our FP is informed by our judeochristian nation status, i think you have to accept that western holocaust guilt is a contributing factor. you are in England–you dont see the bathetic commercials here soliciting AIPAC contributributions with weepy sob sister holocaust subliminals.-
Shams al-Nahar
and razib doesnt see them either– he said he doesnt watch tv. how can you say anything about American culture if you don’t watch TEEVEE?
lol.
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shams
i dont think in England you realize how radically American society is segregating on IQ, age, education, and color. the right is becoming pretty homogeneously older white ‘judeochristians’.
Read Taibbi.
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shams
Short of that, the United States will have to continue its policies in the region that have wreaked, and continue to wreak, havoc on the majority of Arabs and not expect that the Arab people will like it in return.
well….in a word….that is the problem….the United States DOES expect that the Arab people will like it….the United States (under Bush at least), fully expected Arabs to greet our missionaries-with-guns as liberators. The United States is not broadly imperialist, only around the edges, like oil interests– it is, however, broadly colonialist….most americans genuinely believe in the intrinsic superiorty of judeoxian democracy.
America is an evangelical nation….evangelists of judeoxian/western government/culture.
Israel is a beachhead on al-Islams shore. -
shams
and brother thabet…..conventional wisdom arguments don’t play well wid me.
third culture FTW!I’m not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it.
Niccolo Machiavelli -
shams
the American myth of building a nation of ‘noble ideals’ against a backdrop of primitive, uncivilised savages
Now that is just sillie……the treatment of the indigenenous peoples of a America was vastly different in form and function between America and Israeli treatment of Palestinians, Indian schools and missions being the greatest observable diffference. Indian children were forcibly enrolled in christian schools, often at distance from their families. Forced assimilation.
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shams
One more thing….compare these arguments to mikelyons. What is the common denominator?
A complete lack of self-examination.
America was founded as a judeochristian nation, with an absolute intrinsic conviction that the American JUDEOCHRISTIAN model is superior in all situations.
The founders, true enlightment scholars, were able to quietly channel Martin Luther’s egalitarian protestantism to achieve most of their goals, is all.
The difference between Ross Douthat and Mike Lyons and Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck is merely fractal……size not shape. -
bk
Beloved Barack’s foreign policy record and views on the subject are raised for debate (does he ‘hate’ Israelis too?).
President Obama filled me with Hope which has faded somewhat with the obvious load of payback and appeasement due to campaign financiers who take their toll out of a President’s first couple of years. Clinton did not get much done at the beginning or end of his 8 years but those middle ones were spectacular.
Many Israelis / Jews jumped on P.Obama during and after the Cairo talk and accused him immediatgely of anti-semetism and betrayal of Israel. Like all politicians in Washington DC, he has had to work hard to backstep and appease his masters. I assume everyone has seen the Max Blumenthal videos?
I promise to go through thabet’s college course on American Hegemony in the near future if only to learn what the English can teach me about being an American and living in this country.
I usually come to blogs for the concise take on the news and events of the day. Thabet’s diatribe seems more like what we yanks call a “filibuster” rather than an argument. If you can’t make your point in 3 paragraphs, maybe you should just join a thinktank or a college and get paid to bore people.
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shams
brother buzz, it isnt thabets argument.
it is razib-i-dont-care-about-israel’s argument issuing from thabet’s cyber mouth…..-
BK
Reducing this down to a AIPAC or False issue is a bit disingenuous. There is more to consider.
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shams
you can read the whole M&W at GNXP. if i cared i would find the link.
the basis of the problem is people in denial about the the FACT that America is not a secular nation. it is a judeoxian nation with a secular judiciary that keeps the judeochristians from kicking the shit out of the rest of us.
America’s FP is not imperialism– its evangelical colonialism.-
BK
Yeah, I don’t think religion has ever played a serious role at the top of the power structure. Religion is a moniker for a whole host of socio-political concerns which have almost nothing to do with religion.
This is how religion got a bad name in the first place. Too much Aristotle.
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shams
sure, judeoxianity (political christianity) is just the shiny the oligarchs use to distract the cudlips from noticing they are voting against their own economic interests….
and in this election religious patriotism and dogwhistle race-baiting and IQ-baiting are what the oligarchs are using to distract the ‘slines from the hammergun of the demographic timer waiting for them after the election. -
Shams al-Nahar
heres another one of Beck’s handlers….”historian” David Barton–
In fact, Barton doesn’t have any historical training all. His sole academic degree is a bachelor’s in religious education from Oral Roberts University—though given the right’s rampant populism, his fans are unlikely to care about his lack of credentials. Barton’s past association with white supremacists and Holocaust deniers might be more damaging, if anyone paid attention. Still, he’s gotten much more sophisticated about race over the last two decades. These days, he’s more likely to be hurling accusations of racism than fending them off.
Barton built his career by arguing, via a selective reading of documents from the Founding Fathers, that the Constitution is rooted in biblical values and that the founders never intended to separate church and state. He claims, falsely, that 52 of the 55 founding fathers were “orthodox, evangelical Christians,” and that they always intended for Christianity to shape American government. Public secularism, in his view, constitutes an unconstitutional tyranny that is systematically robbing the country of its religious heritage. …
Barton has given American history an immaculate conception, one that turns slaveholders into civil-rights heroes.
He’s helped recreate a myth of a golden age of unimpeachable American righteousness.see……that is what the teabaggers are so furious about….they effed up.
A trillion dollars and five thousand america dead and they still can’t build churches in Mecca. In A-stan al-Islam is kicking America’s ass.
The oligarchs told them for 50 years that Obama could never happen.
They are pissed as hell. -
Shams al-Nahar
Glenn Beck is obsessed with American history, and he’s helped make David Barton the most influential historian in America. A wiry, boyish Texas fundamentalist and master revisionist, Barton specializes in a version of history in which America was founded to be a Christian nation but has been hijacked by a godless minority that uses the courts to impose its fraudulent doctrine of church-state separation. He’s been a fixture on the religious right for years, but thanks to Glenn Beck and the Tea Party, he’s now bigger than ever. For large swaths of the country, he defines the American past, a past the right is desperate to recreate.
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shams
and since Israel is a “westernstyle” aka judeoxian democracy, Israel is the only toehold we have in the ME.
a beachhead on the shores of al-Islam.
it doesnt seem to present as a very hospitable landing zone….but Israel remains our only friendly HUMINT eyes and ears.
Everyone else loathes us, with good reason.
because we are stupid.
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shams
Brother thabet, let us try this one more time.
“Reaching out to the Muslim world may help in creating an environment for peace in the Middle East, but we must insist as Americans that our policies be firmly grounded in the beliefs of the Judeo-Christian tradition upon which this country was founded,” said Cantor (R-Va.), the House minority whip and the only Jewish Republican in Congress, in a speech to the Christians United For Israel annual conference in Washington.
Whose words carry more weight about US foreign policy? The House Whip or a buncha theoretical guesstimates from political “scientists”?
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Matt
I dunno, Thabet. For me, the evidence points to a direct Ashkenazi Zionist stake in promoting Israel, from the early 20th century on until today. It could probably be shown that the US has used Israel as a tool in some ways… but I think it would be an impossible stretch, especially if you look at the earlier history, to say that Israel was a WASP American idea in the first place.
Your imperialist account also disregards the possibility that American imperialist aims in the Middle East might have been much more successful without Zionism stirring the pot.
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thabet
Divide and rule has served all empires throughout the ages, Western ones, Muslim ones, etc. I don’t think Israel was the creation of the US at all. In fact it was the creation of the empire of its day, the British.
Again, I am more than happy to say that I agree with all my ‘critics’ in saying the Israel lobby is real and very powerful in ensuring lots of Americans identify themselves as ‘supports of Israel’. I disagree they have any real influence over the “direction, content, or impact” US policies which have been present for decades, even if the IL could be accused with justification for being involved in the “intensity” of such policies.
In other words, if Israel did not come into existence so close after 1945, it (or something similar) would have to have been created to serve the purpose it does today.
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bingregory
I’m not understanding why there is such a strong either/or argument going on here. Is anyone denying that the Lobby has a strong hand in influencing what options are possible in Israel? Is anyone denying that having Israel as an ally serves an important function for US FP, or that the US is an imperial power? Or that Israel garners sympathy within a segment of the non-Jewish population because of certain mythological similarities, ie white colonists bravely surviving amongst the savages? For all the heat of a 30-comment thread, I’m not seeing what is so controversial or threatening about what is being said by Thabet in the OP. The problem is that all of these things line up to reinforce each other.
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shams
brother thabet is attempting to make two points– that holocaust guilt is no longer in play, and that the US derives some benefit from championing Israel.
When Israel stops being useful to US foreign policy, the seemingly slavish support will stop too.
Both are false premises. Holocaust guilt still plays well with the greys, and Israel is a liability, not an asset.
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thabet
You’re attempting to read something into my points which isn’t there. I really don’t care about ‘grey hairs’ or Christian fundos love of Israel. It is not really my problem.
The only interest I have is in the remarkable similarity between US support for Israel and US support for Saudi — going beyond ten years, back through Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, etc.
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shams
well….the House Whip SAYS American FP is informed by judeoxianity including support for Israel…..
why shouldn’t we believe him? -
shams
and AIPAC gets FUNDING from holocaust guilt that they use to lobby.
like i said, America is a judeochristian nation, not a secular one. -
shams
the remarkable similarity between US support for Israel and US support for Saudi
we get oil from KSA. we get nothing but grief from Israel. it is in Americas economic interest to support Saud. there is no reason to support Israel except cultural ones. there is no economic benefit. so the cultural reasons, holocaust guilt, pretrib fundies, judeoxianity, the Only Democracy in the ME, american jews, AIPAC, etc. are the only reasons to support Israel.
We give monetary aid to Israel. Our support of Israel harms America’s position in the world, endangers our troops in the ME pace Petraeus, and hamstrings our negotiating attempts at a brokered peace settlement.-
Bingregory
“nothing but grief from Israel vs being useful to US foreign policy” is the kicker then. We can imagine a US FP that does better at being good for more people, US citizens included, than the current one, by forsaking Israel, clearsighted visionaries that we are, and humble. I think that idea is a great talking point, shams, and who knows, one day it could get traction. But that doesn’t mean Israel isn’t meeting real goals of the power structure that we have now. “Support for Israel is not healthy for the long term interests of the US citizenry” is not in opposition with “Support for Israel is good for the guns, oil and economic hit men who run the country.”
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shams
I think that idea is a great talking point, shams, and who knows, one day it could get traction.
it will get traction. when the demographic timer goes off and the greys lose power.
Millenials are fuckin’ sick of the US gettin punked by Israel at the peace table and bullshit suicide settlements and terrorist recruitment videos like dancing IDF fucktard with almost a million youtube views.
People my age dont remember the holocaust or the 67 war– we see Israeli assclowns acting like Nazi stormtroopers every day.
Black and brown americans dont give a shit about Israel.
All we have to do is wait for the greys to die off.Someone should explain that to Israelis.
tick…tick…tick…..
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Shams al-Nahar
Eric Cantor, Minority Whip of the US Congress:
President Obama has railed out against construction for Jews in eastern Jerusalem as well as in Judea and Samaria, lumping all of them together as “settlements.” In his “reaching out to the Muslim world” speech in Cairo in early June, he applied the label “illegitimate” to “settlements,” referring to Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria.
Virginia Republican Congressman Eric Cantor, speaking at the conference earlier in the week, said that American polices in the Middle East must “be firmly grounded in the beliefs of the Judeo-Christian tradition upon which this country was founded.”
Rejecting the Obama claim that a Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria and eastern Jerusalem is an obstacle to peace, Rep. Cantor told the Christian delegates, “We all know the real stumbling block to peace is posed by those who vehemently deny the nation of Israel’s historical right to the land of Zion.”Brother Thabet…..i think you are factblocking here.
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Matt
I think brother Thabet makes a good point. So does Bin Gregory. Perhaps we are dealing with a false dichotomy here.
My main point of disagreement with brother Thabet is that it is nearly impossible in any system for influence over the tone and substance of the discussions not to translate into influence over the decisions that actually get made. “The lobby’s” influence penetrates to the highest levels of the US government. Therefore, whether or not this one groups is responsible for EVERYTHING that happens, they are making, and have been making, a significant contribution.
The interests of Israel and certain US oligarchs may be aligned, but they are not identical. Therefore, even if they currently work in concert to a certain extent, it is not correct to say that the presence or absence of one group or the other would change nothing. Human action is an organic phenomenon, the sum of different interests and influences. Change the ingredients you change the result.
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shams
Israel is used as a cattle prod on the cudlips to keep power. That is the main purpose of Israel to US oligarchs. The reasons the cattle prod works are various, but they are all cultural.
Militarily and economically Israel is dead weight, but SACRED dead weight, because critting Israel ALWAYS results in charges on anti-semitism.
The only place Israel contributes is perhaps HUMINT, but that is a very slippery blade, because Israel shapes policy that way too.
The ingredients will change when the demographic timer goes off Matt.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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aziz
a better title for the article might ave been, Catholics meet in Rome to discuss the Middle East. A more effective synod would have been one held in Istanbul, with reps from the eastern orthodox and all the smaller Christian communities that actually still are there in the ME.
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Lawrence of Arabia
First, having seen the working papers for this synod several months ago (they were even posted here on TI), this was never meant to be a synod on the Middle East per se. It was about the state of the Catholic Church in the region and on Catholic relations with non-Catholics. In other words, it was always about Catholics.
And while it might be nice to meet in Instanbul, which, historically, has been the place non-Latin Christians have looked for leadership since the 300s, Turkey does not recognize the Ecumenical Patriarch anything more than the leader of the tiny Orthodox population so it is hard to imagine the Turks smiling upon a gathering of Catholic bishops. Moreover I don’t think a Catholic synod in Instanbul would do anything but harm Catholic-Orthodox relations.
Damascus would be another obvious choice, since the Patriarch of Antioch, whose seat was also originally in Turkey, resides there (both for the Orthodox and Catholics). I don’t know if it was considered but I also don’t know if that would even be realistic. We are very grateful, as it is, that the Melkites, Syrian Orthodox, etc. are given the freedom they are within Syria. Pushing to hold a synod there may not be the next logical step.
It would also, no doubt, be seen as favoring one Church over another. Rome serves as a neutral location.
Having the meeting in Rome also addresses one other issue which is a growing demographic reality for Catholicism in the Middle East: it is increasingly true that it is not Middle Eastern Catholics, but Latins, on the one hand, and Malankara or Malabar, on the other, who make up a large portion of Catholics in the region. E.g., while the Maronites are one of the largest Eastern Churches in the Catholic communion (at over 3million), and while Lebanon remains the largest single grouping of Maronites, Maronites have been fleeing Lebanon for quite some time and the population in Lebanon is now rivaled by the size of the Maronite population in Argentina, while there is another large Maronite community in Brazil. Most people think there are now almost as many Chaldeans served by the Eparch of Detroit as there are in all of Iraq. The world’s 1.6 million Melkites are scattered all over the globe, with the largest groupings apparently in Argentina and Brazil. And one could go on.
The bottom line is that the growing face of Catholicism in the Middle East is immigrant: laborers coming from India, the Philippines, etc. In the Gulf states (including Kuwait), they make up a majority. So one of the main questions for a while now has been how the existing Churches can serve these groups.
As for your suggestion that the Orthodox and others be invited…they no doubt were. Orthodox observers have become typical at important Catholic meetings for a while now. The article said that Jewish and Islamic representatives were invited for the first time, not that they were the only ones invited.
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aziz
good points, all. I guess from a thousand miles away it looks a lot simpler than it really is..
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thabet
Uppity, ungrateful, Arabs find Emperor Obama I no better than Emperor Bush II:
Don’t these people realise they’re unless they’re kissing Obama’s feet they’re supporting Sarah Palin?
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Shams al-Nahar
guess not.
cudlips everywhere. -
shams
you know brother thabet, unless you have a viable alternative to offer, you’re just spitting in the wind.
grow up.On Obama, my position is that to paraphrase Winston Churchill, he is the worst American political leader, except for all of the others.
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thabet
zzzzzzzzz. Go away you stupid fool.
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shams
im not the one spitting in the wind.
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shams
as long as there is no sane candidate on the right, you are lobbying for Palin to be president.
you and razib support Tom Coburn and Glenn Beck and Jim Demint.
ALL the bad people are on the other side.
the old people are on the other side. the racists and the stupid people. the bankstahs and the oligarchs.
the WECs and the christofacists.
This is your cohort.
All you do is whine about how horrible Obama is while refusing to acknowledge it would be a thousand times worse if Palin gets in.
You hate Obama so much you can’t acknowledge where he is ATTEMPTING to change things.
like i said, you don’t get to be switzerland.
you already chose your side.-
thabet
Bush, Obama, Palin, Biden, Gore, Clinton etc are all the same to me. They may have different methods, but their aims are the same: continuation of empire and militarism.
And how do I get a ‘choice’? I am not even an American voter.
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shams
fine then…..no diff.
there is no point in talking about this.
say w/e.
its pretty obvious that Obama stopped torture, tried to close Gitmo, and tried to drag that crazy suicidal bitch Israel back to the bargaining table.
there is something else operating here.
IOH, Irrational Obama Hatred Syndrome.
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shams
that mall bangs dimbo Palin is only one with a shot, and she would be orders of magnitude worse than anything Obama has done….and you know it.
Palin and Bush are the pinnacle of conservative selection for stupid.
The tyranny of the cudlips.
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thabet
Barack Obama responded quite rightfully by dismissing and criticising Mahmoud Ahmadinajed’s deranged suggestion that the US was involved in 9/11. However, he then went onto chide Iran for ‘not international norms’.
International norms he says? Must be different to the international norms that don’t apply to his own country or its close geopolitical allies.
He then went onto pose a hypothetical case whereby Iran’s nuclear ambitions would lead to a regional arms race. Fair enough; it’s a good point to consider. But when questioned by the BBC Persia interviewer’s comment on Israel’s role in the region (e.g. Israel attacking Iran’s nuclear facilities), he said he didn’t want to engage in ‘hypotheticals’.
The rest of the interview contained the usual guff about the Iranian government oppressing its people and the need for the US to speak out against these abuses. Heh, etc.
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thabet
An update on Barack Obama’s commitment to Middle East peace:
Washington had urged countries to vote down the symbolically important although non-binding resolution, saying it could derail broader efforts to ban nuclear warheads in the Middle East and also damage fresh Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.
“The winner here is the peace process, the winner here is the opportunity to move forward with a zone free of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East,” said Glyn Davies, the U.S. ambassador to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
(Via Steve Hynd.)
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bdr, 
thabet, 
Abu Noor, and 1 other are discussing. 
aziz and 
Matt are discussing. 
Arwi and 
shams are discussing. 
BK is discussing. 
thabet are discussing. 
aziz 7:31 am on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
but, she’s hawt
aziz 7:35 am on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
my glibness aside, I think that Queen Rania actually is probably more constrained than you expect. Were she to take a stand against her husband’s autocracy (which is after all milder than the rest of teh Hashemites’ domains or the emirates) she’d basically lose all her existing clout overnight.
Her primary cause is children’s’ education in Jordan and she’s made enormous progress. That more than anything lays the seeds for future reform and liberalism in the country.
Basically, there’s a Bateson’s double-bind in operation here. This Brazilian, writing in a UK paper, is the epitome of the Western urge to dictate to the east and the muslim world how to run their affairs. Rania focuses on her domain and is doing what she can. Who the fuck is this Blinder person to judge her?
thabet 1:24 pm on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
He was speaking on Brazilian TV. The Torygraph reported it.
is the epitome of the Western urge to dictate to the east and the muslim world how to run their affairs. Rania focuses on her domain and is doing what she can. Who the fuck is this Blinder person to judge her?
I’ll assume “epitome” is just hyperbole.
I guess he has the same right to “judge” her as British and American politicians and policy makers have to “judge” others when it suits them. Of course, as a mere television presenter making a joke in a current affairs programme in a language spoken by no major ‘eastern’ and ‘Muslim’ nation, he has far less influence on “dictating to the east and the muslim world” than people commanding the world’s most powerful armies who selectively use “universal norms” for their own interests (thus rendering them non-universal).
And besides, since he was speaking on Brazilian television, and since you’re a free speech advocate, you will agree he has every right to slag her off just as much Terry Jones has the right to burn the Qur’an and he should never have been censured by his government.
thabet 1:40 pm on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
I have no evidence she is “more constrained”. Do you?
But I do agree that many of her own citizens do respect and like her a lot, at least based on my experience of working with Jordanians.
Abu Noor 1:54 pm on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
“her own citizens” do you mean fellow citizens or do you mean to suggest as Queen that the citizens belong to her?
thabet 1:59 pm on April 28, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
Good point. Thanks for catching me out on my sloppy language.
bdr 10:29 am on April 29, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
Any commentary from our leading lights here on Syria?