How welcoming will our mosques be of LGBT?
Tagged: LGBT Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
-
aziz
-
thabet
A Saudi diplomat is seeking asylum in the US, because he is gay:
The diplomat, Ali Ahmad Asseri, the first secretary of the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles, has informed U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials that Saudi officials have refused to renew his diplomatic passport and effectively terminated his job after discovering he was gay and was close friends with a Jewish woman.
In a recent letter that he posted on a Saudi website, Asseri angrily criticized his country’s “backwardness” as well as the role of “militant imams” in Saudi society who have “defaced the tolerance of Islam.” Perhaps most provocatively of all, he has threatened to expose what he describes as politically embarrassing information about members of the Saudi royal family living in luxury in the U.S.
If he is forced to go back to Saudi Arabia — as Saudi officials are demanding — Asseri says he could face political persecution and even death.
-
johnpi
Islam Online has a new section called “Unveiling the homosexuality.”
Here’s an excerpt from an interview with Dr. Awsam Hanna, an Egyptian psychiatrist who has experience in ‘reparative therapy’ where he is describing the ‘homosexual personality.’
It is also a part of the whole “homosexual personality,” characterized by low self-esteem, lack of social skills, disconnection from body, and emotional isolation from society with varying degrees in different individuals. The isolation is not just because of the hatred and homophobia of society, it is an element in the psychopathology (disease process) of the disorder itself. Of course the homophobia of the society adds to it, but it is not entirely caused by it.
I guess that means there is no such thing as a socially or economically successful gay person.
Via Kawdess tweets
-
arif
The best substantive documentary on this topic is Jihad for Love [youtube link]. The most rational argument I have seen so far is by Scott Siraj al-haq Kugle [Amazon link]. The essay by him in this book is a very good read.
-
Pretty Pink Unicorns
I hate homophobia.
-
-
johnpi
‘Model student of Islam,’ regional Muslim Student Association leader, “explodes out of the closet,” founds international gay Muslim group.
-
Fareed
I feel bad for these gay Muslims. I know I may be in the minority here, but I personally have nothing against gay Muslims. That’s probably because of my background as a biology and psychology major in college, and a med student. I simply don’t see how a person could “choose” to be a homosexual. Could I, as a heterosexual, choose to be attracted to members of the same sex? No … and I think those who are homosexual feel the same way, only reversed.
I guess what I’m getting at is that I hope gay Muslims don’t lose their faith in Islam (i.e., don’t feel that Islam has no place for them) because of their sexual orientation.
-
bingregory
Eye on Gay Muslims, pretty even-handed outreach.
-
learningquranonline
“Did you think that We had created you in play, and that you would not be returned unto Us?” The noble Qur’an, Al-Muminoon(23):115.
http://www.learningquranonline.comWhat Does “Islam” Mean?
The word “Islam” itself means “Submission to Allah.” The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of “Christianity” which was named after Jesus Christ, “Buddhism” after Gutama Buddha , “Marxism” after Karl Marx, and “Confucianism” after Confucius.
Similarly, Islam is not named after a tribe like “Judaism” after the tribe of Judah and “Hinduism” after the Hindus. The Arabic word “Islam” means the submission or surrender of one’s will to the will of the only true god worthy of worship, “Allah” (known as God “the Father” in Christianity).
Anyone who does indeed submit to the will of Allah as required by Islam is termed a “Muslim,” which means one who has submitted to the will of Allah. Many people in the West have developed the sad misinformed trend of calling Islam “Muhammadenism” and it’s followers “Muhammadins.” This is a totally foreign word to Muslims and unrecognized by them. No Muslim has ever called his religion “Muhammadenism” or called himself a “Muhammadin.”
What Is The Basic Concept of Islam?
Islam teaches us that this life is a life of worship. We are placed on this earth in order to worship Allah and obey His command. During this earthly life we are subjected to a series of trials. We have the option of enduring these trials and conforming to certain laws, and our reward will be great in the next life, or we may decline to endure these trials and choose to not conform to the law, then we will be made to regret it in the next life.
Each person will be solely and completely responsible for their own final reward. We are also told that God has designed these laws to make this life a better, safer, and more tolerable one for us. If we elect to conform to them then we will see the result in this life even before moving on to the next.
We are told that the earthly life is a life of faith and work, and the next life is one of reward and no work. We have been placed on this earth to worship God, fast, pray, be industrious, good, kind, respectful, and a source of uprightness and morality. We are told that God has no need of our worship. Our worship can not increase the kingdom of God nor add to His power, however, it is in our best interests both in this life and the next that we do.
Unlike some other religions which claim that God entered in a covenant with a certain group of people and that this group is genetically better than all other human beings, or closer to God, Islam on the other hand teaches that no color, race, tribe, or lineage is better than any other. Islam teaches that all humans are equal in the sight of Allah and that the only thing that can distinguish them in His sight is their piety and worship.
“O humankind! Verily! We have created you from a male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Verily! the noblest among you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing. Verily! Allah is The Knower, The Aware.” The noble Qur’an, Al-Hujrat(49):13.
-
-
thabet
-
Kawthar
Speaking at the World Outgames, Rasha Moumneh, a researcher for HRW, argued against the depoliticizing of gender and sexuality.
There is an unfortunate tendency within the movement towards a reduction of people’s multiple selves into a single aspect employed falsely in place of the whole: in this context, sexuality and gender identity. By doing this, by positing a “global gay citizen” stripped of context, of environment, of relationships, of community, of a politics, in order to sustain the myth of a “happy global gay family,” we are doing harm. As if, if we just manage to take away all this extraneous noise that is “culture” (for lack of a better word) and politics, we would then emerge with a distilled, undiluted “Essence de Gay.” And Essence de Gay is invariably white, usually male, and predominantly middle class
-
razib, murtad fitri
-
johnpi
Israel recruits gay community in PR campaign against Iran.
“We have to lay the foundation in the world, and particularly in Europe, in order to be able to take harsher steps against Iran, especially in the economic sector,” said one senior political source in Jerusalem.
The new campaign, to be overseen by the Foreign Ministry, aims to appeal to people who are less concerned with Iran’s nuclear aspirations and more fearful of its human rights abuses and mistreatment of minorities, including the gay and lesbian community.
Lucky Muslim gays to have such a champion of their human rights, and for such noble reasons…
-
johnpi
Imagine a delighted South Asian Muslim family receiving a marriage proposal from a promising recent med-school grad for the hand of their attractive, young daughter in marriage.
In reality, the doctor is gay, the daughter is lesbian, and the two of them have found each other through the Internet to arrange a marriage of convenience. The two will go on to live communally with their respective lovers in the same house. “I get married to a lesbian, we sleep in different rooms, and remain friends. Meanwhile I can have a boyfriend.”
Here’s a short film that illustrates the scenario above. The film asserts that there are hundreds of gay Muslims in America today living in such MOC marriages – maybe even a seemingly heterosexual couple you know.
Interestingly, the narrative of the girl refers to how she grew up mostly completely separated from boys in the Muslim way and so grew close to her girlfirends, until one became her girlfriend – implying that the Islamic norm of strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection. Recently, Umar, in his response to Yusuf Smith, referenced stories of homosexual behavior at Islamic madrassas, which again point to the possibility that strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection.
Regarding MOCs, if we leave aside the question of whether God is happy, everybody else is. The community’s norms are not overturned, the extended family doesn’t have to “suffer” social repercussions to their fragile honor, no one has been murdered, no heterosexual winds up unknowingly married to a homosexual, and the guy gets the girl in the end. No wait…
-
Muse
Regarding MOCs, if we leave aside the question of whether God is happy, everybody else is.
Except the couple who has to live a lie.
-
razib
Recently, Umar, in his response to Yusuf Smith, referenced stories of homosexual behavior at Islamic madrassas, which again point to the possibility that strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection.
there’s a difference between those who engage in homosexual acts to “release” their impulses in sex-segregated situations (some muslim cultures, prisons, religious communities, ancient athens, etc.) and obligate homosexuals. i am very skeptical that the men who engage in homosexual acts in a sex segregated circumstance ever “learn” to prefer same sex relationships. the situation maybe different for women, for whom there is more of a balance between physical and emotional aspects. i know of many straight women who have experimented with lesbianism, very few straight men.
-
PI.info
Muse – I used to think as you do, but after having watched the conservative Republican party over these past 8 years and the constellation of gays that have served in high places in support of conservative values, I no longer believe “living a lie” is a problem for some. All of those people had a choice in this country about where to invest their political energy, and they chose a party that stands against them in every way (except for the libertarians). I can only speculate on this, but perhaps some people love tradition and traditional values more than they love integrity, and that may be just as true of the gay Muslim community.
-
PI.info
Razib – Do you then agree that sex segregation fosters homosexual behavior if not homosexuality? Also, perhaps not all homosexuals are “born” that way. Maybe early experiences result in identity formation. Recently I excerpted an article on recovery from male rape written by a therapist:
Many boys who have been abused by males erroneously believe that something about them sexually attracts males, and that this may mean they are homosexual or effeminate. Again, not true.
If a person has a belief about his or herself and acts on it, it becomes true because it is believed. The more acts and interactions, the more “confirmed” the belief becomes. The person may not have been born homosexual, but acts and behavior has reinforced what was initially an erroneous belief and made it the reality.
-
razib
Razib – Do you then agree that sex segregation fosters homosexual behavior if not homosexuality? Also, perhaps not all homosexuals are “born” that way. Maybe early experiences result in identity formation. Recently I excerpted an article on recovery from male rape written by a therapist:
yes and yes. in the first example, i know gay american men who love the fact that many men from muslim societies are already experienced with homosexual sex, so paying them to take the “dominant” position if they’re in need of money for sex is totally possible. as long as it’s kept quiet
many gay men enjoy the fantasy of having sex with straight men, and men from ‘traditional’ cultures are obviously a better bet than american men who expected to have sex with women during their formative years.for your second point, extreme situations can cause psychological changes. but obviously i doubt most males are homosexual due to male rape. even the higher than typical sexual abuse rates of course might have to due to the particular vulnerability of homosexual boys and the closeted nature of adult homosexual males. i guess we have a causal conundrum here. that being said, from what i know of ex-prisoners (i have known some in the past), their homosexual experiences (including traumatic rapes) don’t turn them gay once they get out. so perhaps it is different for kids.
-
PI.info
I agree that male rape probably does not account for any significant number of gays in the population. I was more looking toward the insight that some portion of the gay population comes from nature, some from nurture.
Islam purports to discourage/oppose homosexuality, yet it creates situations that nurture same gender attraction (as described in the narrative of the girl in the short film). Having said that, I don’t even think gays on the “nurture” side of the equation “choose.” Powerful positive feedback loops are create in the social environment that turn some to the same gender for connection, emotional, and eventually for some, sexual sustenance, which is why an examination of how we structure society makes sense on this issue.
Islam could better align with its own values concerning homosexuality by reforming the maladaptive social norms of sex segregation that foster male-female alienation and same gender attraction.
There is an implicit value judgment in what I’m saying – that heterosexuality is better than homosexuality – but I gather from the responses of gays to those who accuse them of “choosing” their preference is that most gays wouldn’t wish the difficulties of being (born?) gay onto anyone, and if they could have a gender attraction transplant they would, but there’s no such thing.
-
razib
Powerful positive feedback loops are create in the social environment that turn some to the same gender for connection, emotional, and eventually for some, sexual sustenance, which is why an examination of how we structure society makes sense on this issue./i>
agreed. i think these people are re-habilitable toward their normal orientation. you can distinguish born from made gays probably by physiology (gay men have somewhat different brain structures than straight men).
Islam could better align with its own values concerning homosexuality by reforming the maladaptive social norms of sex segregation that foster male-female alienation and same gender attraction.
it’s not really islam, it’s economics. if people got married at 15 like they used to this wouldn’t be an issue. but if you have a society where men have to put off getting married until their 30s because they need to find a “good job” to support a family, no surprise that they start having sex with gay filipinos in lieu of ladies in their 20s
-
PI.info
Wow…an economics-based theory of homosexuality…even Marx didn’t do that. Very cool…
-
Despair
I don’t know what to say except that I am gay and I am muslim and all what tears me apart is how alot of people get to claim about why/if I am gay by choice or not and am I messed up or not, and how difficult it is to think of what kind of life am I supposed to lead.
Someone said something about throwing integrity and doing it for traditions sake..well sadly I cant seperate religion from integrity unlike how alot of people see that religion is something you do to not disturb the society around you, I do it because I believe in it, and being gay has caused to me question islam and life so hard that now I know for sure islam is the right way, but yet understand what it means to tolerate and how to be spiritual rather than traditional.The only missing part..I cant aspire to life anymore…I dont fit with anything cause I am gay(attractions are not expressed infact disgusted of, and I have different than the norm guy interests)..I cant trust, I cant satisfy the people around me..I am too weird, and most of all with no will to live at all…for I dont want to disturb society but at the same time I dont want to loose my identity/integrity…Help..
-
Despair
Oh and just fyi, I had quiet a physically abusive father, who vented his rage often, and I lived with my aunts for quiet sometime…as my parents were always not around..
just giving a suggestion of what maybe went wrong..
-
HOMOPHOBE
YOU FUCKIN JEW, STOP BULLSHITTING ABOUT ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY, I AM A CHRISTIAN MYSELF, AND I KNOW THERE IS NO WAY FOR HOMOSEXUALITY TO BE OKAY IN BOTH ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY
-
-
Fatemeh
Eh, I’m a little late this week. But last week’s MMW was chock full of fun: we looked at Syrian lingerie from another angle, pondered the interlocking oppression of Mona Awad, critique the LA Time’s profile of Aliyah Bacchus, review Slumdog Millionaire, discussed the construction of gold diggers in Muslim circles, and give mixed reviews to the coverage of Egyptian women in mosques. And, as always, a gaggle of links.
Arwi, and 1 other are discussing. 
Pretty Pink Unicorns and 
arif are discussing. 
Fareed are discussing. 
HOMOPHOBE, 
Despair, 
Abu Noor 1:49 pm on May 19, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
Alhamdulillaah my role as a Muslim chaplain in a university setting has allowed me to speak at several events around the issue of LGBTQA and Islam or faith communities in general and has allowed me for the first time I can remember to meet over the last couple of years Muslims who openly identified as LGBT (I don’t believe any of them regularly attend any mosque).
I like the basic point made in this piece but I think it is a great point to start a discussion, but I don’t think it can really be a satisfactory take for long, although I am still actively trying to think through this issue, and I don’t necessarily have a better alternative.
First of all, I do think the issue has to be seen as part of the largeer context where the vast majority of Muslims do not regularly attend any mosque at all and many many people outside of the LGBTQ community would say they do not find most mosques “welcoming” although what that means is a much longer discussion. I am really not sure how this will work among the Muslim community, where the dynamics are at this time certainly different than other communities, but for most people who identify themeselves as being gay I do not think over the long term they will find a community “welcoming” if it does not affirm their identity in a positive way.
Is my point clear? So while I certainly agree that one should welcome people regardless of their sins in the Muslim community, I do not actually think that people will feel welcomed by a community that perceives something central to their identity to be essentially sinful.
aziz 2:20 pm on May 19, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
I think that a key point to make is one of identity. Are LGBT muslims simply muslims who happen to be LGBT? Or are they LGBT who happen to be muslim? There is a tension which is not dissimilar to the muslim-american duality, but of course much more strained since there is no fundamental theological contradiction between being muslim and a loyal citizen of your nation. The question is do LGBT muslims simply want acceptance as muslims, or do they want acceptance as LGBT. The former is easy, and the perspective expressed by the link. We should welcome muslims to our mosques, period. However, social reprogramming of muslim communities to be more accepting of LGBT as a whole is simply not realistic, nor is it even necessary, inn my opinion.
Any muslim who is LGBT should have the freedome to participate as a muslim in our communities. They shoudl not be excluded on the basis of being LGBT if they are seeking inclusion as a muslim. But no mosque should be forced to openly reorient its communal traditions and mores around LGBT.
In practice I think it does boil down to a version of dont ask, dont tell, dont discriminate. It will probably be easy for an LGBT single person to fit in with oftaar, salaat, etc. But if that same person’s LGBT status is revealed (or even asked, and answered honestly), then there should be no retribution or exclusions.
Arwi 10:02 pm on May 19, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
It will probably be easy for an LGBT single person to fit in with oftaar, salaat, etc.
Easy for the straight men around them, but easy for the gay person in hiding, I don’t think so.
I don’t know f you read the Muslim Hedonist blog or her later Recovering Conservo Muslim blog, what I liked about her writing was that she was honest about the griefs she experienced, and the price of what you call “easy to fit in”.
aziz 5:16 am on May 20, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
no, i hadn’t – and I’ll readily acknowledge that I am speaking theoretically. I know we have several LGBT muslims here at TI, and I am hoping they and others exploit the opportunity this thread provides.
Arwi 10:07 pm on May 19, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
I don’t think it can really be a satisfactory take for long,
Yes, I agree. I wonder what you think of the arguments of Siraj al-Haq about homosexuality and hierarchy.
(I find them risible, but I am unqualified to deliver such a judgement).
islamoyankee 4:52 am on May 25, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
Salaam Abu Noor. I’d like to hear more about your experiences, and if you’re willing, perhaps even try to turn into a piece for Religion Dispatches.