Why the world needs religious studies, via @Rdispatches – http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/culture/4636/why_the_world_needs_r
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aziz
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aziz
When Dalgarno asked the church’s board to buy the [copies of the Qur'an], he cited Ecclesiastes 3:7 and said, “There is a time to be silent, and a time to speak up.” The group donated $600 by the end of the meeting. Dalgarno said, “We owe it to our faith … to separate ourselves from those who do, and provoke, violence.”
http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-salt-lake-city/slc-presbyterians-provide-free-copies-of-islam-s-holy-book -
aziz
Cold Turkey: a new vacation idea, pay to be muslim for a month!
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thabet
Damien Thompson blogs about a guide for evangelical to ‘reach out’ to Muslims.
Thompson quotes the book when comparing Muslim and Christian views of ‘salvation’:
Few people claim that the Christian God and the Muslim God are exactly the same. It may be that one sheds light on the other, but what we must avoid is a logically absurd situation where incompatible claims are held as compatible. Let me explain by taking as an example God’s method of salvation, specifically how one gets to heaven or paradise. For Christians, this happens through repentance and faith in Jesus. For Muslims, the main way this happens is when on the day of judgment God judges your good deeds to have outweighed your bad deeds. These are different and, I would suggest, mutually exclusive methods of salvation … While as Christians we can affirm the monotheism of Muslims, we cannot affirm their view of God in totality.
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shams
meh.
the WECs dont get it because they stupid.
muslims dont give a shit if xians want to believe in the jesus godhead– they are all people of the book.
we do, howevah, care quite a lot that they WANT TO MAKE US BELIEVE IN IT TOO.
we cant.
surat iklas.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
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thabet
Gah, the bottom of my post got chopped off.
I was only going to note I don’t think the bit in bold is an accurate description of Muslim beliefs through the ages. Having the right creed is very important, probably the most important, element.
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shams
this is the other core concept– salvation by faith vs salvation by works (deeds). it is an accurate description of the other core divergence, besides the jesus godhead. salvation by faith alone is not just.
not islamic.
OTOH salvation by faith is the nominal reason jesus “died” on the cross and was (supposedly) resurected as god..or a god….depending on what the speaker defines as shirk. it is basically uninteresting i think.
a death row murderer can be saved by faith?
unjust.-
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
shams, depends a little bit by what you mean by “saved by faith”? But a death row murderer can certainly be savey emaan plus tawbah…I’m sure you know one of the most famous ahadith, the hadith of the man who killed hundred people. He merely desired to make tawbah, and set off towards a new land and died before he could reach the land or even begin to do any other good deeds. According to the Prophet (saw), Allah (swt) literally moved the earth in order to make him measure closer to where he was intending to go and to declare him from the people of jannah.
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shams
“he set off to a new land” is obviously a work.
salvation by faith alone is anti-islamic i think…it is unjust.
The Real knew the man’s heart (qalb)….you and i do not.-
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
It is an action no doubt, but it is not somehow equal to killing hundred people. My point was not that faith without deeds can enter one into jannah….in fact I believe it is conceptually impossible to have emaan without good actions…but your comment that a death row murderer cannot be saved by sincere faith is just clearly wrong, that’s all I was pointing out….tawbah is available to anyone who is not dead, and while someone is alive any sin can be forgiven.
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thabet
salvation by faith alone is anti-islamic i think
The argument you’re making is not new to the Islamic tradition. It is quite old and goes to the heart of beliefs like ‘justice’ and the omnipotence of God.
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shams
do you have a citation for the counter-argument?
as a revert my impression is that justice is the heart (qalb) of islam….and i have not read much hadith.
it was my mandate to read the Qur’an when the Real spoke to me….as i understood.
nothing about hadith or sunnah. -
thabet
The counter argument is that by saying ‘God cannot be unjust’ you are subsuming God under a human view of justice, and thereby encroaching upon His Omnipotence.
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shams
hmmm that is the first interesting thing you have said all day.
but this leads to the free will argument, doesnt it? -
thabet
Yes, it does.
I know where you’re coming from, and I think there is a place for it in the Islamic tradition, but I don’t think you can be so dismissive of a widely-held view in Islam regarding having the right faith/creed and salvation from hell fire.
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thabet
The ‘grain of faith’ hadith is the one I’ve seen cited most.
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Abu Noor
I don’t mean to be nitpicky, but a distinction should be made between the question of whether the “Muslim God” and the “Christian God” are exactly the same, and the question of whether Muslims and Christian differ in their theology, that is, in their understanding of God’s description, attributes, and the way God interacts with human beings, salvation, etc. Of course there are large and significant differences between Christian theology and Muslim theology (also of course the extent to which one can meaningfully refer to Christian theology in general or Muslim theology in general is quite debatable).
But to the extent that both Christians and Muslims believe there is one God that created the heavens and earth and both claim to be monotheists then in some sense it is absolutely necessary if one is a believer in either to say that yes, the God worshipped by the other is the same God that I worship, although one can then say but the other has some mistaken views about how that God works.
I know this may seem like I am deliberately missing the point of the comment, which is why I said I don’t mean to be nitpicky, but I think it is important to frame the question this way. I mean, if one is going to talk about incompatible claims asserting there is a Christian God and a Muslim God who are different is completely incompatible.
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Abu Noor
Other things I found interesting in the column:
I understand Thompson’s perspective that Christians involved in most active Christian-Muslim or Christian-Jewish dialogue in the “West” are often people who are not aggressive proselytizers. They are also often quite sympathetic to Islam and are indeed often critics of other Christians, it should not be forgotten that they are often approaching such dialogue as members of churches which are predominant and powerful in their countries and are dialoguing with minorities, sometimes vulnerable minorities and this might explain some of this…along with the fact that aggressive proselytizers don’t last long in interfaith dialogue.
I also found the attempt to compare the proselytization of Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them). First, while I understand that Jesus had a particular set of teachings that he (as) wanted people to believe, if he was ‘converting’ people, what was he converting them to?
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shams
proselytization evolved as an evolutionary strat to increase reps. initially, one had to be born a jew to have membership, except for bride capture of course. christianity evolved proselytization as a an ESS to convert jews and pagans. all one had to do was profess a belief in christ.
al-Islam evolved defenses against proselytization– eg, jews and christians could be citizens in the Caliphate, but they could not preach or build churches. In situ, al-Islam is immune to xian proselytization. EGT immune.-
shams
and this persists to this day.
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aziz
Abu Noor,
I’m not sure I understand your question. Clearly, Jesus was converting people to Deen (at the time, which was Christianity). The message was aimed at those following the earlier version of Deen from the prophet Moses, as well as those who remained without any Abrahamic Deen at all (Romans, pagans, etc).
or am I misunderstanding the question?
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Aziz, we may just be debating semantics here (not that that is a bad thing at all, but if that’s what it is we should identify it as such)…but what I am trying to say is that I don’t believe either from an Islamic perspective or an historical Jesus perspective did Jesus (as) see himself as founding a new deen called “Christianity.”
I would suggest in general, although the details can get complicated fast, both the historical Jesus perspective and the Muslim perspective agree that Jesus (as) preached to Bani Israeel, and that he (as) and his followers continued to observe the laws of the Tawrah….although he (as) had received revelation and was a prophet calling to his understanding of the true implementation of that law.
This is where for Muslims, Paul becomes the bad guy who invents a new religion called Christianity which makes Jesus God, and tells people they do not have to follow the law.
So, to say it shorter, although I know this is not what Christians may think , again from an historical Jesus perspective and a Muslim perspective neither Jesus nor his followers thought of themselves as changing from the religion of Moses/tawrah to another religion.
Why I say it may be semantics is I guess you could say that true “Christianity” is not what Paul taught but simply those from Bani Israeel who accepted Jesus as a Prophet and accepted the injeel as revelation even if they had not abandoned the law they were in that sense now following “Christianity.” Although I think that’s a very confusing way to think about it.
Allah knows best.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
And as to Thabet’s point about salvation in Islam, of course the highlighted section represents the percreption of Christian missionairies of what Muslims believe. Muslims do tend to emphasize being accountable for one’s deeds on the Day of Judgement and to see this as a more attractive notion than the idea that Jesus dies for the sins of those who believe in him.
However, as Thabet alludes to, it is completely standard and uncontroversial orthodox Islamic belief that no one goes to heaven except by the mercy/grace of God, that other than shirk God forgives any sin one sincerely repents from, and that anyone with true and correct iman in their hearts will eventually enter Paradise.
As a last observation, Thompson seems to believe that writing a work about converting Muslims to Chrisitianity is very brave and rare, or something. We are all aware of the religious-political realities around such conversions in some parts of the Muslim world, but in the west, there is a large amount of such material, and actually more than there is the other way around (which is not surprising given the much larger numbers and resources that proselytizing Christians have as opposed to proselytizing Muslims, but Thompson’s writing seems to me to imply that he is not aware of this.
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shams
but Thompson’s writing seems to me to imply that he is not aware of this.
unaware of history and of evolutionary theory of culture as well.
typical WEC.-
thabet
Thompson probably dislikes WECs as much as you.
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shams
Fuck off with this stupid shit. I’ll happily trade differences of opinion with you, but stick to the topic or I am going to clamp down on you like I do on your friend.
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Shams al-Nahar
facist.
that was a perfectly reasonable point. WEC can mean White EVANGELICAL Catholic in the Taxonomy of Shams. Proselytization and race are the dominant traits.
if you rewrite this, ill just make a post about it. ima front pager too.-
thabet
Facist? Are those the people who discriminate based on how good looking someone is?
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thabet
Well, Catholics face their own ‘wec’ problem from American evangelicals across Catholic strongholds like Latin America or the Philippines.
I don’t think Thompson is an aggressive evangelical. He’s a traditionalist, probably believes the Church needs to be more strident in preaching and has an intense dislike of the stereotypical Left-Wing Marxist Catholic Intellectual. He doesn’t strike me to be on the side of the Bible-thumpers.
Michael Nazir-Ali strikes me as more of an evangelical than DT, and he’s a Pakistani-born Anglican.
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shams
I don’t think Thompson is an aggressive evangelical. He’s a traditionalist, probably believes the Church needs to be more strident in preaching
brother thabet…..evangelizing MEANS to preach.
and lol.
and im sure ur quite good looking so that would be inapropriate.
fascist.
i meant comment-nazi off course.
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thabet
evangelizing MEANS to preach.
A bit like what you’re doing?
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shams
im not preachin– im just speaking the truth.
I DEFINED evangelism for you brother thabet, since you apparently didnt know the definition.
an’ im just bored with how stupid and anti-empirical people are.
why is this hard?
muslim god > christian god > jewish god.
simple set theory. -
thabet
Empiricism? Is that the view which ends in thumping the table hard to prove it exists?
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thabet
im not preachin– im just speaking the truth.
Ho hum.
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shams
chill dude, LOOK what you said.
I don’t think Thompson is an aggressive evangelical. He’s a traditionalist, probably believes the Church needs to be more strident in preaching
all i am pointing out is that “aggressive evangelical” is THE EXACT SAME THING AS “advocates more strident preaching.”
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shams
aiight.
jus’ keep on walking thabet.
that is how this always ends. -
Shams al-Nahar
you see Brother Thabet….the empiricism of this equation is that you never want to talk about the underlying issues that drive the behavior you condemn in muslims..indeed you hold all of al-Islam to blame, Hirsi Ali style, razib style. that is why i suspect you of being a maftoon, because it seems in your view western culture is ALWAYS superior.
if i make a post on free will you will all roll your eyes over what a crazy child i am and not comment, you and Abu Noor preferring to bash muslims and al-Islam 24/7.
i know im only an embryo. im trying to learn, im trying to grow.
And it is hard for me not to see this as razib poisoning, since western culture chauvinism is his schtick, and you both liek him. -
thabet
This is probably one of your funniest comments yet.
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thabet
all i am pointing out is that “aggressive evangelical” is THE EXACT SAME THING AS “advocates more strident preaching.”
Well, I disagree. If anything I have found that genuinely ‘conservative’ religious individuals who take their adiqa and fiqh seriously (or whatever the Catholic equivalents are) don’t like aggressive door-to-door Holy Book salesmanship, because their understanding of ‘human nature’ is radically different.
For example, I have never seen a Sunni or Catholic stand on Edgware Road preaching The Good Book. I have only seen ‘evangelical’ Muslims and Christians do this.
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shams
lol.
Well, I disagree.
then you might think that, but you would be WRONG. that is a pretty funnie comment too.
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shams
preaching == evangelizing.
what do you not understand about this? -
thabet
What does white Orientalist ex-neocon pro-warpimping rubbish like you know about living and breathing Islam, or about popular views on Islamic theodicy, or growing up in non-white/non-western culture within a minority context?
Nothing.
Go away.
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shams
You’re an ignoramus. Yawn. Bye.
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thabet
Thompson seems to believe that writing a work about converting Muslims to Chrisitianity is very brave and rare, or something
He’s a grouchy (but witty) politically conservative Catholic who believes Muslims get a free ride in Britain that Catholics don’t (especially from the liberal-left), so you can ignore him on this point.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
I guess a clearer way to say this is that the difference between Muslims and Christians as to salvation is the role of Jesus’s death on the cross. This is central for Christians, Muslims reject this.
As to the relationship between faith/good works/and salvation this is just more complicated a discussion in both Christianity and Islam than Thompson presents here.
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shams
the muslim god succeeded the christian evolutionarily speaking. so the muslim god IS the christian god, AND the jewish god. the doctrine of the people of the book.
the jesus godhead and original sin stuff got tacked on ex post facto.
salvation by faith is incompatible with the yawm al-din and the core islamic theme of justice.
the clearer way to say this is what she said (me), at the top of the thread.
muslims dont give a shit if xians want to believe in the jesus godhead– they are all people of the book.
we do, howevah, care quite a lot that they WANT TO MAKE US BELIEVE IN IT TOO.
we cant.
surat iklas.Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
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shams
thabet, its gobsmackingly simple. the religion that comes after incorporates the prior aspects of the Real.
like this.
Muslim god > christian god > jewish god.
christians say they and jews worship the same god– jews dont agree.
muslims say they and christians worship the same god– christians disagree.
why this is worthy of discussion i fail to understand.-
Crabby
I think in emphasizing the Jesus Godhead as the only way to salvation, they are ironically pushing the deeds aspect into their faith since it has to be good in the manner of a certain selective view of God. Whereas in Islam, the error margin is quite huge balanced with sincerity.
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shams
i think Paul said “faith without works is dead.”
but the jesus godhead, deatha nd resurrection is covolved with the idea of original sin. my born-again friend says she is just as sinful as jeffrey dalmer, and there are not enough works in the widewide world to redeem her. that is why (according to born-again protestantants) jesus HAD to die.
he died to save humanity from original sin.
but this is cracked because original sin wasnt tacked on until later.
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thabet
the religion that comes after incorporates the prior aspects of the Real.
Yes, this is the Muslim view of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
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shams
and ima muslim.
but that is also the evo theory of culture view of religious evolution…..the Scientific View.
convergence! -
shams
and plus, this is conformant with history, and Evolutionary Theory of Games.
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Lawrence of Arabia
Over at WaPo, Eboo Patel provides a critical review of Christiane Amanpour’s Should Americans Fear Islam segment.
I, personally, would have thought that the whole “HOLY WAR” banner being used as a back drop would have been a sufficient clue as to how bad it was going to be.
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Hitch
Sadly I’m not very impressed by either Eboo Patel or Reza Aslan. But they look OK when in contrast with the off-the-chart crazy. It indeed isn’t that hard to state the obvious.
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Arwi
Reza Aslan’s hair exists to impress those who are otherwise unimpressed with Reza Aslan.
(On one hand, I disapprove of personal remarks. On the other, Reza Aslan’s hair.)
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hakim
ASAWRWB
Is it just me who can’t find a link in this post?
jak
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Abu Noor
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hakim
jazakallahu khayr, akhi
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Lawrence of Arabia
ack! sorry about that. link now included.
and thanks, Abu.
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thabet
Muslims block Bible-burning in South Africa:
Several Muslims in Johannesburg, where the event was set to take place, launched an 11th hour interdict in the High Court to stop Mohammed Vawda from setting a Bible bonfire on Sept. 11. They argued that such an event would be divisive and an insult to all religions.
After a 40-minute hearing in the South Gauteng High Court, Judge Sita Kolbe agreed and banned the event. The ruling also amounts to a ban in South Africa on the burning of any Bibles and other religious books.
Lawyer Yasmin Omar, who represented an Islamic intellectual organization called Scholars of the Truth, spearheaded the legal bid with her husband, Zehir.
They called Mr. Vawda’s plans “appalling.”
After the verdict Mr. Omar said, “I’m very pleased the judge came to this decision. Not only did he ban this protest but he also banned other people from burning the Bible.
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thabet
I like historical tidbits like this:
Searching around, I came across this blog by a descendent of Abd el-Kader (or Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza’iri) who writes about Abd el-Kader’s involvement in protecting Christians during the 1860 Damascus massacre. I can’t really excerpt it, or comment on it in anyway, but I did enjoy the whole post.
Amazingly, The New York Times even has its 1860 editorial on this incident.
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thabet
A wishy-washy interview with Imam Feisul Abdul Rauf:
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shams
wallah…..is this goofy sufi interfaith koombyah spin? Everyone except the deliberately stupid knows OIF and OEF were both just part of the Bush admins Global War on
Terrorismal-Islam.
disappointing.
Like I allus say, there cannot be productive interfaith dialog until the xians abandon their percieved “right” to proselytize in favor of some manners and humility. al-Islam is EGT immunized against xian proselytization anyways.Common people repent from their sins, the Sufi repent from ignorance. –Zunnun
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thabet
I don’t object to him being wishy-washy or a ‘goofy sufi’. Others can make that complaint.
What I am pointing to is this: he turns up, as a willing ambassador of US foreign policy, to a number of countries in the Middle East (all staunch US allies) to preach about American tolerance, while the US: continues to occupy Muslim countries, support some rather unpleasant regimes in the region, refuses to punish torturers or war criminals (most of who have committed crimes against Muslims), and holds people illegally and indefinitely in its gaols (all are Muslim prisoners).
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shams
but what good does that do? he sees his path. if he was a firebrand like me what traction would he get? Aziz said that Faisal’s kind of sufiness is the most ‘acceptable’ kind of muslim…its deliberate. And like your crits of Obama i just don’t think there are any miracles to be had.
One out of every 200 Iraqis died in the last 7 years. That is just horrific to me. OIF and OEF were part of the unjust and immoral war on al-Islam that that fucking WEC retard Bush pretended he wasn’t fighting. we still have half the country gladly baring their throats for the oligarchy’s boot and a 10% jobless rate….look at Esmay. there are many, many like him.Like my dressage trainer always says, you ride the horse you’ve got, not the one you wish you had.
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thabet
And like your crits of Obama i just don’t think there are any miracles to be had.
To me, and lots of others, Obama is not different to Bush because both headed a vast, militarised, ‘empire’ which kills and tortures with impunity:
In that way, Obama picks up from where his predecessors Clinton and Bush left off.
Clinton, Bush and Obama differed less on the central themes of US national security and more on the best ways to implement them.
For example, Obama’s NSS emphasises the need to comprehensively “promote democracy and human rights abroad”. That echoes to a large degree Clinton’s NSS of “Engagement and Enlargement” – foreseeing expanding democracies and open markets as indispensable to US security and prosperity.
Tell me how Bagram is different to Guantanamo.
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shams
its not. and both were built by Bush.
Obama can’t even close gitmo.
what do you not understand about representative government? -
thabet
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shams
and the best way to fight the teatards is to believe in America and the constitution, and insist on our constitutional rights as American Citizens.
Look what we have to fight against…..pure evil wrapped in the slimy contention that old white xians have some sort of super-citizen rights to be hateful racist ignorant bigots.
More loathesome “playful intellectualism” from Reihan. Words fail. At this point Reihan just fills me with horrified incredulous loathing.
How do you like him now, Abu Noor?-
shams
for those who won’t click the link, Reihan sez “Glenn Beck is the White Malcom X”.
astaghfirullah!
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Thabet, I agree completely with your objections to Abdul Rauf being an ambassador for the U.S. and for largely the same reasons. But, I think you may be misstating the trips as he (and others who do similar things view them). I don’t think they see themselves as going on behalf of U.S. foreign policy but rather as advocating on behalf of the treatment and status of Muslims within the United States. Now I am not sure if they do this because they think this will benefit the Muslim countries, will benefit Muslims in the U.S., or will just benefit the speakers personally, or some combination of the above…but I don’t think the idea is to defend U.S. foreign policy and in fact you will find many including Abdul Rauf criticizing U.S. foreign policy.
As I said, don’t misunderstand, I agree with you that in light of U.S. foreign policy I object ot any Muslim agreeing to represent the State Department to Muslims countries but if you have something that shows that such speakers are actually advocating or defending U.S. foreign policy, I’d be interested to see that.
In fact, while I think being grateful to Allah requires that we acknowledge that lives for American Muslims are generally privileged and comfortable, to trade on that as some kind of excuse for or reason to be quiet about U.S. abuses of others, here and abroad, would be incredibly reprehensible. I always think of the ayah:
wa tilka ni’amatun tamunnuhaa ‘alayya an ‘abbadtta banee israaeela
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shams
no kind words for Reihan, then?
what about people who use their great gifts for evil, Abu? -
Shams al-Nahar
do you still ‘like and admire’ Reihan, Abu?
I know you have a better have understanding of who Malcom X was than most.-
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
You are right that this piece is bad on many levels as was his endorsement of Douthat’s piece on Park51. You are right that it shows that either Salam has very little understanding of Malcolm X or that he was just trying to use a cute hook for a post on Glenn Beck and was willing to completely misuse the legacy of Malcolm X to do so.
I wouldn’t say I like and admire him right now, no.
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thabet
I am echoing someone like Omid Safi, hardly a frothing anti-American Islamist:
I had to check to make sure whether Abdul Rauf had turned up on his own, or whether he was part of an official State Dept. delegation. If the former, then fine; he was there in his own capacity, preaching whatever he wishes to do so. But if turned up as a representative of the US govt, whether this was explicitly the aim of the mission or not, then a failure to address the shortcomings of foreign policy — while asking his audience to concentrate on the better aspects of the US — was a real failing.
The interview itself was also ‘wishy-washy’: but not surprising given where it is published.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
in my own opinion, the mistake is going there representing or sponsored by the State Dept. Personally, going there on behalf of the State Dept. to tell Arabs they should have a good opinion of the U.S. becasue Muslims are treated well here is a problem even if you say well I am against U.S. foreign policy and I have the right to say that in America as well.
This is a highly unusual position to take in the American Muslim community, however.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
My perception is that Abdul Rauf chose many years ago to be the “American imam” and also to be so very publicly, which is why both the campaign to label him an extremist as well as his seeming unpreparedness/hesitation to really engage the issue in the media initially was surprising. Perhaps he really was taken aback himself, or thought that it would not help to engage when the issue was white hot (although that does not seem to be the consensus of most observers, with many Muslims expressing frustration about his low profile in the most heated days of the debate).
Allah knows best.
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shams
i object to his statement that there was no struggle between islam and america. that is a lie. Under the Bush admin, America spent 8 years at war with Islam, trying to proselytize/implant/stand-up westernstyle democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.
America just lost in Iraq, and america is LOSING in Afghanistan.
why pretend?
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Shams al-Nahar
Aziz, I have a question. What do you believe interfaith dialog can accomplish?
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aziz
good question. Perhaps a quote someone referenced here on Talk Islam might answer:
If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his true friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what he will, is the greatest highroad to his reason, and which when once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause, if, indeed, that cause be really a just one. On the contrary, assume to dictate to his judgment, or to command his action, or to make him as one to be shunned or despised, and he will retreat within himself, close all the avenues to his head and heart; and though your cause be naked truth itself, transformed to the heaviest lance, harder than steel and sharper than steel can be made, and though you throw it with more than Herculean force and precision, you shall be no more able to pierce him than to penetrate the hard shell of a tortoise with a rye straw.
this is from one of Obama’s sheikhs, I hear
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Shams al-Nahar
wallah……pwn’d again.
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thabet
A genuine lol. That has to be the best answer I’ve ever seen on here. I’m still laughing (sorry shams).
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Shams al-Nahar
yes, and you are not sorry.
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Dean Esmay
I think the current Pope’s answer on that one is also pretty good: how can we know the truth about how we ought to live together justly, despite basic creedal differences?
I agree with him that “inter-faith dialog” is of limited utility if it’s about spiritual matters; the best it can do is firm up what the creedal differences are as well as the similarities. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all DIFFERENT religions, and they aren’t going to merge into one. They cannot; the divide is fundamental. That said, mutual understanding and respect are important, and finding the practical areas where we can bump elbows without hurting each other, is hugely important.
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Crabby
In some talks about legal restraints in religious blasphemy, there is the opinion that the status of God/Truth cannot be in any way compromised by the nonsensical conduct of a misguided invidiual. As a human being though, you are susceptible to abuse and therefore your basic rights must be protected.
The Sufi Naziri of Nishapur also said, “Infidelity of faith are not necessary conditions in love.”
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shams
Brother Crabby, is not being proselytized too much to ask?
not-proselytizing is wholly in the respect and understanding domain.
yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
that is essentialism…the respect for the essence of the unique invidual…..if I was not meant to be a sufi, sufism would not have appeared in my path.
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McKiernan
I don’t believe this stuff.
Aziz is not lost on the question, only the answer. Dean is joining the lostness brigrade, then quoting the Pope, already.
Go for it.
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shams
McKiernan is right. interfaith dialog is basically useless wankery.
Christians are EGT wired to proselytize, and muslims are wired to be EGT immune to christian proselytization.
its teh biology.
so inspite of Aziz wanting to starfall drops of honey over the raid, i don’t really see what it accomplishes.-
McKiernan
Amazing to find josan over here.
Who’da. thunk it.
So what’s the difference between proselytize and advertise ?
Meddling is meddling is it not ?
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Mc Kiernan
Aziz,
Your thread is shrinking. It needs to be sanforized.
Anyhow, thanks for the editing. Most of my comments have a shelf life of about six hours
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shams
im a frontpager here and i don’t post a quarter of what thabet does.
i have a sideblog too.
perhaps you should find another blog to comment on in your own IQ aggregate, cudlip.and like i said if you want to know the difference, read John Maynard-Smith–Evolution and the Theory of Games.
if you can. -
aziz
McK, Dean has an open thread up now.
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Mc Kiernan
But, but, I’m starting to like it here.
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shams
i doubt that either you or Dean can survive my withering scorn.
but you are welcome to try.
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Rosemary Ribner
Good to read you again, Shams. But I can take a hint. I’m outta here.
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Shams al-Nahar
your comments are welcome, Rose. just obey the house rules.
like i allus say, justice cannot be created by unjust action……and the best revenge is living well.
i think you would be a valuable addition to Aziz’s project….catholic grrl. -
Rosemary Ribner
I’ll do my best – to stick to the rules. We’ll see if I can add anything of value.
Just so you know, I am living very happily ever after.
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Mc Kiernan
Rose, Sorry, I’ve never bought anything over there without severe mental reservation but I’m still looking at the merchandise. If you know who has been selling himself as a victim of childhood abuse…go figure…I’m watching from a long distance. You were one of my first supporters along with SMA. I haven’t forgotten. Peace.
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Rosemary Ribner
Thank you, McK. And I always will be one of your supporters. It’s been a long and often painful road I’ve traveled. My honor and integrity are the two things that I never compromised and it saddens me that some believe so many untruths.
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thabet
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Lawrence of Arabia
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Debbie
Jesus is love and incapable of hating anyone. Further more, we are created to love everyone as Jesus does. We have been created to love and pass on this love through relationships and discipleship.
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Moses ibraham
Mohammed hates everyone, even fellow mulims….death to Islam
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shams, 
thabet, 
Crabby, and 2 others are discussing. 
Arwi, 
hakim, and 2 others are discussing. 
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee, and 
McKiernan, 
Moses ibraham, 
Debbie, and 
How about pay to be Jewish for a day (Purim). Purely for the purpose of interfaith understanding, of course.