‘One third of Germans prefer a Germany without Islam’.
You can make your own Nazi jokes.
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thabet
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thabet
Morally sophisticated and culturally superior civilisation:
With leading politicians singling out Turks and Arabs — even suggesting, as the Bavarian premier, Horst Seehofer, did last week that they would be better off returning to their countries of origin — public attitudes about foreigners are swinging increasingly toward intolerance and racism, according to the report.
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Mikelyons
One-third and one-tenth are still very much a minority. But I have to say that the arrogance, the hubris and the demand to submit that the Muslim population almost always makes to the host is driving up those numbers.
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mikelyons
Oh, and the false claims of Muslim victimhood that Mislims constantly use to beat up on the host population (Well, except in China; but the Chinese would not put up with Muslim BS)
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Pretty Pink Ponies
I lived in China, and if you had the slightest proximity to some of the atrocities perpetrated by the Chinese state against its own minorities, including Muslims, you’d never speak out, even anonymously on the Internet, from the terror. You really have no fucking clue. Let the police come at you with bats and guns just fucking once, sir, with loathing and hatred in their eyes because of who you are and if you escaped with your health, teeth and brains intact, you’d find the tiniest hole you could get and crawl into it.
I’ve been among some police actions there, and the sheer balls of you saying these kinds of things illuminates how incredibly entitled and ignorant you are and just underlines what a cowardly blowhard you are, a small-minded drama queen with no real comprehension of the realities of group, societal and governmental violence.
“The Chinese would not put up with Muslim BS” – fuck you. You WECs scream “jackboots” and paint Hitler moustaches on Obama, but you don’t have a goddamn clue what authoritarian power does. Men with long knives and soldiers with military hardware massacre minority groups in the night. Have you ever experienced a Chinese police raid? I have.
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thabet
but you don’t have a goddamn clue what authoritarian power does.
On the contrary, I think they do. They are just upset they don’t have unlimited authoritarian power any more.
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thabet
And here we have it: Lyons openly expressing his pleasure at the poisonous atmosphere of bigotry and hatred.
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thabet
This is a debating point in Germany today:
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Lawrence of Arabia
I love how “Judeo-Christian” has become a mask behind which hides das Christentums dark past and in which continues to lurk so much dark power.
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Shams al-Nahar
it is political xianity– puritans with flag pins…its the same in the USA.
state religion.
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Matt
I think it is natural for people to feel this way, for reasons that modern politically-correct thought tends to neglect. It is still an open question whether true pluralism and truly egalitarian democracy can sustainably coexist. Egalitarian democracy raises the stakes on culture. Real pluralism is a recent experiment even in the United States.
We should not forget that the historical pluralism in Muslim lands was not egalitarian or democratic. This does not mean that it was not a good system– but it was what it was. Different groups had different rights and responsibilities. There was no free practice of religion in the modern liberal sense.
In the same way, all of the European states were born in circumstances much less culturally liberal than those that prevail there today. Pluralism in this situation is new and untested. Or, we could say, it is being tested.
So while I think it would be better for people if they were more open-minded (i.e. not bigoted), I also think it is natural for them to feel this way. Regardless of how anyone feels, there are big changes afoot in the world. Only God knows the future.
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Shams al-Nahar
But America does not have real pluralism. The elite semi-secular judiciary is the brake on the tyranny of the judeochristian majority.
“pluralism” in america is a headfake.
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thabet
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Hitch
Call it pandering to the base. Merkel leads the “center right” Christian Democrats… multi-culturalism and more sensible stances on integration is usually the domain of the center left to left parties.
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thabet
The Germans are reserved about the information being provided to the US by a German ‘jihadist’ currently being interrogated (tortured…?) in Bagram by the CIA:
In the first days after September 11, 2001, Ahmad Sidiqi was considered to be a supporter of jihad. One of his friends in Hamburg had provided assistance to one of the pilots who participated in the attacks on New York and Washington. And he himself had worked as an airplane cleaner at Hamburg Airport. Occasionally, he also helped out the family of terrorist accomplice Mounir el Motassadeq, including a summer vacation taken together in Morocco in 2002. Eventually, though, security officials lost all traces of Sidiqi.
Today, Sidiqi, 36, is considered a terrorist — and if the words he has spoken in interrogations are to be believed, then he already has a remarkable career in the field behind him. The Afghan-German, who was arrested in Kabul at the beginning of July, is now being held in the notorious prison at the US military’s Bagram base near Kabul. He is considered by the Americans to be their most important prisoner at the moment, and is being interrogated by special units of the CIA and the American military. Security authorities in a number of countries are currently analyzing his statements.
Reads like a plot from 24…
Meanwhile, the latest US drone strike in Pakistan is said to have killed eight ‘militants’, including German nationals:
“Five German rebels of Turkish origin and three local militants were killed in the strike,” a security official said, adding they were trying to find out further details of the dead and their militant group.
Another security official told AFP that “some European nationals including Germans were killed in the strike”, without giving an exact number. -
thabet
During a speech celebrating German reunification, German President Christian Wulff said ‘Islam had a place in Germany’:
A recent poll found that ‘more than half of Germans see Muslim immigrants as a drag on the country’.
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Null
Is Judeo-Christian ‘history’ an euphemism for something else?
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thabet
Muslim men don’t do housework, ‘insurance clerk claimed’:
A Muslim immigrant in Germany who asked his insurance firm to cover the costs of a maid while he recovered from a serious accident had his claim rejected on the grounds that according to his religion, husbands don’t do the housework anyway.
The 79-year-old Algerian man had been seriously injured after being hit by a car and had already received a six-figure sum in damages from the Gothaer insurance company. When he filed an additional claim to cover the costs of running his household because he wasn’t healthy enough to do so himself, an insurance clerk responded by interpreting the Koran as placing the man above the woman.
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thabet
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thabet
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thabet
A German executive for Deutsche Bundesbank has stated in a new book that all ‘Jews share the same gene’ and that immigrants, especially from Muslim countries, are ‘dumbing down’ Germany, leading to calls for him to be sacked and have his membership of the Social Democratic Party revoked:
I am neither shocked nor surprised to find Sarrazin is popular in Germany, nor that somone dubbed by Pankaj Mishra as ‘Germany’s Ayaan Hirsi Ali’ stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Sarrazin:
Liberals making use of their own ethnic origins in siding with demagogues against their own particular pet hates? Surely not…
Mishra’s criticism of Kelek is in a piece in which he links Ayaan Hirsi Ali (whose liberalism led her to work for right-wing warmongering torture fanatics) with populists like Geert Wilders, and the frauds and loonies leading the shrill, racist, charge against Park51 (the latter having their own raging hard-on for far-right thugs). He also points out that intellectuals who peddle The Enlightenment to people marked as ‘uncivilised’, often do so while also supporting war and empire:
Those who tirelessly cheerlead [Ayaan] Hirsi Ali’s war on totalitarian Islam today did not have much, if anything at all, to say about the original despoiling, by western-backed Muslim fanatics, of Pakistan and Afghanistan during the anti-Soviet jihad in the 80s. The long-gathering backlash that finally arrived in the west on 9/11 sent them scampering to bone up about “Islam” – about as gainful a mode of knowing your enemy as Afghans sitting down to read Kant’s essay What is Enlightenment? after a US drone has destroyed their village.
Many of these Islam watchers championed the misbegotten wars that have already killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims and ruined innumerable more lives. But they still present themselves as virtuous and lonely warriors, indefatigably rooting out the internal enemies of western civilisation, who tend to be either Muslims sinisterly reluctant to embrace the true American patriot’s worldview, or politically correct liberal-lefties too scared to hear, let alone speak, the real truth about Islam.
The promotion of war, torture, racism and empire by these high-priests of liberalism, whether they be intellectuals, writers, politicians, or pundits, shouldn’t really surprise anyone though.
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Shams al-Nahar
Pleez……no one but middle-aged white guys thinks AHA is an intellectual. She’s just part of the Angry Estrogen Posse and a paid performance artist on the AEI Wingnut Welfare Lecture Circuit.
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Hitch
This story is interesting from a very different angle. We haven’t really seen a right populist movement in Germany. Italy, France, Austria, Norway, Netherlands all had them or have them. It is worrisome that that a topic that used to be more out fringe may spawn a more “centrist” brother in Germany.
Btw, this guy is hardly a liberal by any definition of the word. He is anti-poor, anti-unions, anti-immigration, and he has a history of pissing people of with questionable remarks and attitudes.
A few irrelevant notes on Enlightenment, Kant’s essay is the last I would ever point to. But that would be moot in the context of the above essay anyway. Finally “liberal” means something different in a German context than in the US. Certainly if you ask a random German intellectual if the US had gone through the Enlightenment, the answer is quite probably no. The “west” is not one in terms of political attitudes or perception of what enlightenment even is.
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thabet
Btw, this guy is hardly a liberal by any definition of the word. He is anti-poor, anti-unions, anti-immigration, and he has a history of pissing people of with questionable remarks and attitudes.
And this is my point. Why do liberals who dislike ‘traditional’ groups so eagerly climb onto the back of stuff like this? I recall Ed Husain berating the ‘backwards’ practices of Muslims. Ok, I don’t object to him expressing these views on Muslim attitudes towards liberalism, secularism and human rights even in forceful ways; but why then does he go running to publications like The Daily Mail which spend so much time attacking liberalism, secularism and human rights? Keleck, Hirsi Ali etc are the same: they go around claiming Muslims are illiberal, anti-secular, violent, pro-religion, etc; then hitch themselves with people like Sarrazin or the AEI.
(Also consider the very German Kulturekampf.)
Certainly if you ask a random German intellectual if the US had gone through the Enlightenment, the answer is quite probably no.
This is very interesting since it also claimed the US is based on these ideals, principally the separation of church and state (correct me if I am wrong, most Europe countries still have involvement in state churches).
Out of interest have you read The Seduction of Culture in German History?
The “west” is not one in terms of political attitudes or perception of what enlightenment even is.
Don’t disagree with that.
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thabet
Turkish-Germans returning “home”:
Along with this sentiment of non-integration, another factor that encourages them to leave is the level of discrimination on the job market. According to a study conducted by the University of Konstanz, people with Turkish names are14% less likely to be called for job interviews. This is marked contrast to the situation they would enjoy in Turkey, where the economy has been booming in recent years and there are plenty of interesting jobs on offer to well qualified bilingual graduates.
Hitch are discussing. 
thabet, 
Pretty Pink Ponies, and 
Mikelyons are discussing. 
Shams al-Nahar, 
Matt, and 
Null is discussing. 
Hitch 7:29 am on July 12, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
I wish there was context for this. For example given the Minnesota study non-believers are even less trusted than Muslims in the US. So if three questions were asked: Would you prefer a US without non-christians? Or without Muslims? Or without jews? Or without atheists? What would the percentages be? Take other stigmatized groups? How many people, for example would prefer their country to be without homosexuality? Etc etc. 1/3 is bad. But how bad is it in the scheme of general levels of intolerance and bigotry?
svend 12:02 pm on July 14, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
Not that I’m an expert on Germanica, but, to give the proverbial devil his due, Germany has long had a problem with xenophobia and provincialism (my “favorite” example: the cases–which caused fierce soul-searching–of Germany soccer stadiums reverberating with monkey calls when black players from opposing teams showed up). Unfortunately, a disproportionate percentage of foreigners there and in the rest of Europe hail from Muslim-majority countries, do Islam is the “natural” target of xenophobes and extreme nationalists.
svend 12:04 pm on July 14, 2011 Permalink | Log in to Reply
The intensity of the prejudice and disdain this guy encountered while in black face is quite sobering.
http://akramsrazor.typepad.com/islam_america/2010/03/black-like-me-in-germany.html