Ayodhya ‘holy site should be split’:
Other parts of the site will be controlled by Muslims and a Hindu sect.
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thabet
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thabet
I’ve really grown to dislike this sort of communalist dross:
(Via @DaveHill.)
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Yakoub
They ought to write about targetting first time voters, written in Kidulthood lingo.
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thabet
The battle lines in British Islam have been drawn: it’s the Muslim Council of Britain against British Muslims for Secular Democracy.
There are people on both sides whose work and views I respect, but also those on both sides I thoroughly dislike.
Andrew Brown sees it as a case of identity politics for both the Left and Muslims, but also a good old fashioned scrap for the claim to be the ‘genuine’ voice of British Muslims, comparing it to the experiences of Irish-American Catholics.
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razib, murtad fitri
the comparison with irish catholics is intriguing, at least for the USA. comparisons & contrasts.
1) proportionally more irish catholics in the USA 19th century.
2) the elites were more unequivocally hostile to irish catholics (the democratic party bosses viewed them as tools, but it took a while for the irish to take over the city machines). there wasn’t an ideology of multiculturalism.
3) irish catholics were more naturally ethnically homogeneous. muslims in the UK less so, though i suspect a pan-brown identity may emerge if pakistanis can get over their racism against bangladeshis (something which bangladeshis themselves have internalized from what i can gather from my british relatives).
4) the irish american catholic identity can not be understood except in light of the ethnogenesis of the modern irish catholic identity in ireland in the late 18th and early 19th century, which involved a reform of the catholic religion in ireland and the rise to power of irish clerics across the catholic world. muslims in britain obviously have international connections, but it seems less coherent and concrete than that of the irish catholics. IOW, british muslim identity is more of a native british muslim phenomenon.
in some ways the jews may be a better example, they differed from american catholics in that they never directly challenged the WASP ascendancy because they were too weak and diffuse vis-a-vis the mainstream. at least until the 1960s when liberal jews broke the lock of the eastern establishment on elite institutions.
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thabet
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razib, murtad fitri
well, how the british public & gov react to this sort of jostling within a nascent community will shape that community in the future. e.g., the dissolution of the status quo relationships between european states and their jewish communities with the conquests of napoleon wrecked total havoc. the rabbis lost their power, and jewish religious institutions split between reform and anti-reform elements.
i’m glad that the term ‘islamophobia’ isn’t too popular here in the states. i have no idea what they’re trying to add value wise that couldn’t be imputed by terms like ‘racism’ or ‘bigotry.’
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razib, murtad fitri
and yes, i don’t like the operational usage of the term ‘anti-semitism’ either.
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thabet
Heh, good idea to avoid 10 posts lambasting you for not considering this…
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abunoor
I don’t like Islamophobia either. Of course, if one uses racism, which I think is probably pretty accurate label for most anti-Muslim bigotry in Europe (not as clear in the U.S.)…one often quite stridently hears the argument from the right that “Islam is not a race” and we don’t oppose Muslims based on their ethnicity, in fact we love “moderate Muslims” (read ex-Muslims or Muslims who don’t practice Islam or believe any of its tenets).
I think the idea of constructing the term is obviously modelled upon the use of anti-semitism in the public sphere (isn’t that ironic considering so many Muslims don’t like the way “anti-semitism” is used?)
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razib, murtad fitri
you can use a more general term like ‘bigotry.’ i have plenty of friends who are pretty straightforward bigots against evangelical christians. that is, it goes beyond criticizing the group’s *general* positions, and a total dismissal of their being as humans (i.e., they’re “inbred” and “retarded”).
i don’t like anti-semitism because people who have a special bigoted animus against jews are pretty rare. most anti-jews because they hate jews qua jews hate a lot of other groups has part of their prejudice portfolio. the nazis killed homosexuals & gypsies, and lots of “subhuman slavs,” as well as jews.
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abunoor
As I’ve said I am not a big fan of the term Islamophobia, but using a term like bigotry does not at all achieve what people are trying to achieve with the term Islamophobia, so I can’t see it as being a suitable replacement.
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plimfix
There’s an interesting paper on what I assume is this divide, as manifested earlier in the decade, by UK anthropologist Pnina Werbner, which sees a liberal/conservative split in the British Muslim diaspora: Werbner, P. (2004) Theorising Complex Diasporas: Purity and Hybridity in the South Asian Public Sphere in Britain, ‘Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies’ 30:5 pp.895-911
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plimfix
Oh, and just in case you didn’t know, BMSD includes my old pals, the inimitable ranter Yasmin Alibi-Brain and the every charming Taj Hargay
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thabet
Yes, I know the YAB and Hargay in BMSD. But the letter was signed by several other people too.
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thabet
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Interesting discussion at Blogging Heads about the context for this violence in Nigeria and about the major issues facing Nigeria in general, with reference to other African countries as well. It features Dayo Olopade, who is a Nigerian American, and Eliza Griswold, who has a book coming out (although not for several months I don’t think) called “The Tenth Parallel” about the historical dividing line in Africa between Muslim and non-Muslim populations.
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cbarwa
that has always been a tenuous and shifting line historically.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
No doubt, and although obviously I haven’t read her book, from her comments in the diavlog she does not maintain and I hope I didn’t give the impression that it is some sort of fixed or exact line. The main point is that there are historical conflicts between different groups of people along these fault lines which are primarily contests over resources but which have been imbued both historically and currently with religious overtones.
To your average secular materialist that will come as no great insight, but obviously there is a strain of analysis that constantly speaks of “Islam’s bloody borders” and would posit that there is something inherent in the nature of Islam which causes wars and violence in areas where predominantly Muslim and non-Muslim populations come into contact.
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cbarwa
True, there is actually quite a good discussion about the shifting nature of this line and the impact economic and environmental factors have had on it in a book of collected essays by Immanuel Wallerstein (of all people) on Race and Nationalism; it is well worth looking up for the historical analysis it gives in just a few pages.
The ‘bloody borders’ thesis is a Huntingtonian legacy; I just want to clarify that it has little to do with secular materialism really (in fact the arguement contained therein is a manifestly non-materialist one). Its application to Saharan Africa is one of its problems. I think only Nigeria could said to really have communal conflicts along religious lines (though these exist in Ghana, there, they are more along ethnic lines). Nigeria is probably the exception to the region in this sense. Course as we know from Somalia and Rwanda, religion isn’t really the driving force behind conflict in these regions.
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razib, murtad fitri
Nigeria is probably the exception to the region in this sense.
yes. there have been heads of states who have converted from christianity to islam to christianity in africa, and it didn’t seem to cause that much commotion.
though i would say that nigeria is a very big exception. it’s kind of like saying “china is the exception to the rule in asia.” that can be true, but excluding the middle east & russia from asia china is still about 35-40% of asia’s population i think.
in any case, i suppose one could look to the yorbua to see how christians and muslims get along, as this group has large populations of both religions (unlike the hausa and igbo who are muslim or christian respectively). if there isn’t conflict among the yoruba one might be able to tunnel down into more detail as to what’s going on in the “middle belt” (though it looks like that groups marginalized by the fulani and hausa have taken to christianity, just like the hill peoples of southeast asian are christian and so maintain their identity in the face of the therevada buddhist cultures of the lowlands).
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Razib did you see the David Shenk Will Wilkinson diavlog?
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razib, murtad fitri
you’re the 10th person who has asked me that
not yet. some of the stuff shenk has written i don’t recognize. i.e., no one talks about a G + E model vs. G X E model. but i guess i’ll offer a comment when i listen (i consider will wilkinson a friendly acquaintance, fwiw).
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cbarwa
though i would say that nigeria is a very big exception.
I tried to think of a response to this but couldn’t, yeah it does sound kind of silly to say this given Nigeria’s scale; but arguably – underpopulated states that operate according to different axis are far more typical of SSA than Nigeria. For many purposes, I think Nigeria and South Africa, are quite important outliers when talking about modern African history and politics – they have certain features that separate them from most other SSA states!-
razib, murtad fitri
needs to be a special word which takes into account large outliers. e.g., “namibia is exceptional” should be weighted very differently than “nigeria is exceptional.”
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Conrad, on secular materialism my point was that a secular materialist would not buy the bloody borders argument and would assume that all religious conflicts are essentially conflicts over resources onto which religion is just used as a rhetorical device.
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cbarwa
Abu Noor – yes I agree about the bloody borders arguement vis-a-vis secular materialism. I would say though that probably only certain strands of Marxists, think religious conflict is primarily a displaced struggle over resources (most modern Marxists would probably take a more sophisticated view); Realists and Institutionalists would probably regard it as merely the outcome of power struggles between different groups (ie the relative scarcity or abundance of resources isn’t the driving force behind social conflict but the desire of some groups to dominate and exert their power over others and these groups take different forms of which religion is only one)
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johnpi
‘Love jihad’ accusations against Indian Muslims racheting up tension, likelihood of violence.
The “love jihad” phenomenon – which may just be linked to a few religious-minded Romeos – could have been comical had it not deepened domestic hostility towards India’s Muslim minority. There are fears that the use of the word “jihad”, often interpreted as meaning holy war, may give extremist Hindu and Christian groups an excuse to justify attacks on Muslims.
“Certain fundamentalist groups that have been carrying out vigilante attacks against inter-community couples for several years have now started using the ‘love jihad’ theory to justify their attacks,” a police official told The Hindu newspaper. He did not name the groups, but was probably referring to the Sri Ram Sene and the Bajrang Dal, which target women and religious minorities.
Sri Ram Sene is now preparing for a nationwide campaign on the issue. Its leader, Pramod Mutalik, has said 150 party activists have been deployed in public places to keep an eye on “suspicious activities”. When a “love jihad” activity is identified, “it will be stopped then and there”, he said.
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learn quran online
What is jihad
First, we would like to start with stating that Islam does not call for violence; rather it abhors all forms of violence and terrorism, whether against Muslims or non-Muslims. Islam, moreover, calls for peace, cooperation, and maintaining justice, and provides for the happiness and welfare of humanity as a whole. This fact is declared in the Qur’an when Allah says: (Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.) (An-Nahl 16: 90)
Jihad is one of the words that have been misused due to misunderstanding its true meaning. The word “Jihad” is derived from the Arabic word “Jahd” which means fatigue or the word “Juhd” which means effort. A Mujahid is he who strives in the Cause of Allah and exerts efforts which makes him feel fatigued. The word “Jihad” means exerting effort to achieve a desired thing or prevent an undesired one. In other words, it is an effort that aims at bringing about benefit or preventing harm.
Jihad can be observed through any means and in any field whether material or moral. Among the types of Jihad are struggling against one’s desires, the accursed Satan, poverty, illiteracy, disease, and fighting all evil forces in the world.
There are many religious texts that refer to these types of Jihad. Among the forms of Jihad is defending life, property or honor. Those who die while engaging in Jihad are considered to be martyrs, as confirmed by Hadith. Jihad is also done to avert aggression on home countries and on all that is held sacred, or in order to face those who try to hinder the march of the call of truth.
In Islamic Shari`ah, Jihad in the Cause of Allah means fighting in order to make the Word of Allah most high, and the means for doing so is taking up arms in addition to preparation, financing and planning strategies. A large number of people are supposed to take part in Jihad including farmers, craftsmen, traders, doctors, engineers, workers, security men, preachers, writers and all those who directly or indirectly participate in the battle.
This type of Jihad was a major concern of Muslims in the beginning of the formation of the Islamic community, and a lot of verses of the Glorious Qur’an and the Hadith advocated and encouraged it. Almighty Allah says: (March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor) and strive with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah.) (At-Tawbah 9: 41) Jihad is considered an individual duty (Fard `Ein), on all Muslims who are capable and fit to fight, in the event of being invaded by the enemy, and is considered a collective duty (Fard Kifayah) in the event of not being invaded. However, if the Imam (leader) calls to Jihad, people must respond to his call. This is evident from Allah’s Saying, (O you who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad) you cling heavily on the earth?) (At-Tawbah 9: 38), and the Hadith narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim, “When you are called to Jihad, then go forth.”
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thabet
Sunny notes that a Sikh group is upset at a BBC Asian Network presenter (who happens to be Muslim) for his ‘denigration’ of a Sikh symbol (the kirpan). Razib picks up on this news story and notes:
There is a third, more local, dimension in the UK: there is (or was in the 1990s) a lot of friction between Pakistani (i.e. Muslim) and Sikh gangs in certain hotspots across the UK, the most notorious of which is Chalvey Estate in Slough (just outside of west London). I didn’t grow up anywhere near Slough (I’m from the other side of town), but like most British Pakistanis have lots of family there. There were always punch ups (actual and rumoured) between gangs, and tales of boys from each side ‘targetting’ girls from the other community for sex or religious conversion as a way of humiliating their ‘enemies’.
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thabet
200 people are questioned by the police following the murder of Pakistani Christians by a rioting mob.
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eliza
I notice that people are often rounded up and questiond after a riot of this kind, but not prosecuted or sentenced. One can only conclude the rioters have served the valuable purpose of persecuting non muslims, or certain kinds of muslims, and enjoy the approval of their society.
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eliza
I now read that they have arrested some persons, but a threatening mob
is demanding their release. All of this is typical.I respect this site for allowing material like this to appear. I see some brave souls in the ME trying to make a difference. If only more muslims united for the establishment of Public Order without regard to religion or politics.
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thabet
I now read that they have arrested some persons, but a threatening mob is demanding their release.
Do you have a link to this? Thanks.
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eliza
It is in several places, try persecution.org. For news about Pakistan I like thenews.com.pk
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thabet
Six (the BBC says eight) Christians have been burnt alive in a town in Pakistan:
Clashes erupted early on Saturday, with an exchange of fire from the members of the two communities.
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Dan
Don’t expect Muslims to care, they are not Palestinians under siege by the Israelis.
I’m still waiting for the Salafi hacks such as Amad of MuslimMatters to comment on this, but I doubt it, because evidently, being a Muslim in the West is supposedly much worse than being a Christian in a Muslim country.
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razib, murtad fitri
civilized countries have to hold themselves to different standards.
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Safia
“I’m still waiting for the Salafi hacks such as Amad of MuslimMatters to comment on this,
but I doubt it, because evidently, being a Muslim in the West is supposedly much worse than being a Christian in a Muslim country.”Is there a story to this I am missing, or what? I don’t read muslimmatters regularly.
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Dan
Amad doesn’t devote enough attention to the plight of non-Muslims living in Muslim countries. He never bothers to point out the horrors that Christians have to endure in Iraq by the same extremists he professes to love.
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thabet
He never bothers to point out the horrors that Christians have to endure in Iraq by the same extremists he professes to love.
Heh, any links which show this support?
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Dan
http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/01/why-is-the-flap-on-my-face-a-slap-in-yours-mr-sarkozy/
Read Amad’s posts. He even banned a commenter who dared to call him out on his support for Yvonne Ridley.
And don’t forget brnaeem and his constant love of the Taliban.
It would be better off if these Salafi hacks would just make hijrah to Peshawar.
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eliza
See, stories like this is why we look at your hijab funny in the West.
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Muse
yea you should eliza. this hijabi is plotting the destruction of the West right after baking these cookies.
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eliza
Thanks for warning me, Muse.
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Musilm
This is very disturbing. I pray that Allah (swt) guide these Muslims and open their eyes too see the reality of what they are doing. I am shocked at the lack of tolerance shown by each side, the Muslims and the Christians.
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thabet
More violence in Nigeria:
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pi.info
Mr Yusuf’s followers in Bauchi are known as Boko Haram, which means “Education is prohibited”.
They attacked a police station on Sunday after some of their leaders were arrested.
Correspondents say the group is seen locally as a fringe group and has aroused suspicion for its recruitment of young men, and its belief that Western education, Western culture and science are sinful.-
razib "the atheist"
“brought to you by the same nutty primitives who claim vaccinations are un-islamic!”
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thabet
Hundreds of Indian students have taken part in violent protests in Sydney, after a spate of attacks on foreign students in Australia’s major cities.
thabet is discussing. 
abunoor, and 1 other are discussing. 
cbarwa, and 
eliza and 
Dan, 
thabet 8:03 am on October 3, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply
“The verdict on Ayodhya: a historian’s perspective”.