Senator Harry Reid issued a statement on marriage equality that balances his religious beliefs with his liberal principles.
Tagged: civil rights Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
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aziz
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aziz
The Associated Press has won a Pulitzer Prize for its reporting on the NYPD spying scandal.
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aziz
Following the revelation of intelligence gathering on Muslim students at Penn, three elected student leaders at the campus Hillel issued a statement in support of Muslim students at the school. … “Given the recent findings of the NYPD’s monitoring of Muslim students, we, as leaders of Hillel and Penn’s Jewish community, stand firmly in solidarity with our brethren,” the Hillel leaders wrote. “We hope that the university will work to further prioritize the security and rights of all religious students.” One of the statement’s signatories, Alex Jefferson, president of Penn’s Hillel, said that the gesture had already helped build bonds between the communities and that Muslim students and Muslim student leaders had expressed their appreciation.
http://m.forward.com/articles/152241 -
aziz
A months-long investigation by The Associated Press has revealed that the NYPD operates far outside its borders and targets ethnic communities in ways that would run afoul of civil liberties rules if practiced by the federal government. And it does so with unprecedented help from the CIA in a partnership that has blurred the bright line between foreign and domestic spying.
http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16026/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=pWphudFP -
aziz
The French Police State: arresting a woman for wearing niqab (VIDEO)
The woman’s shrieks as she is manhandled by the police are heart-rending. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite
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Arwi
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aziz
“Those of us in law enforcement know all too well that terrorists continue to target the United States. We have seen the dangerous consequences take hold in places like Fort Hood, Texas, and Times Square in New York, and even reach here in Ohio, where our office and the FBI prosecuted a homegrown terror cell plotting to kill Americans abroad. Preventing these kinds of attacks is our top priority. Our enemies seek not only to kill our citizens and destroy our cities, they also want to attack the most fundamental American principle of all — our free, open and diverse society. We cannot and will not let them succeed. We find ourselves facing foreign-based terrorists, including al-Qaida, seeking to radicalize people here in the United States in new ways. Using sleek ad campaigns on the Internet, these terrorists try to recruit Americans to attack their neighbors. We must counter these efforts, but must do it wisely and without sacrificing our ideals.”
Steven M. Dettelbach, United States Attorney, http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/04/ohios_muslim_arab_neighbors_de.html -
aziz
The DOJ is suing a school district over refusal to let a muslim teacher take 19 days off for hajj. The teacher resigned and went anyway.
This is a really problematic case. Absolutely horrible optics. I am not clear on why DOJ thought it wise to pursue, as it could do more harm than good.
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abunoor
My friend Kamran Memon, (don’t hold that against him) who represents the teacher involved, explains why the suit is necessary and justified.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2011-03-29-editorial29_ST1_N.htm
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aziz
The ADL is looking to hire an “Islamic Analyst”.
Based in New York, this position will advance the mission of ADL’s Civil Rights Division, Center on Extremism, by conducting research and investigating extremism and anti-Semitism. Responsible for writing internal memorandum, public reports and articles; participate in strategizing and implementing programs and policy based on research findings.
There’s two ways this could go… but I have a feeling it’s not the kind of partnership I’ve called for in the past.
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Dawood
Qualifications:
Masters Degree in political science, history, international relations, sociology, English, Jewish studies or related field; or commensurate combination of education and experience.
No Islamic Studies or Middle East Studies there? That’s mighty strange…
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aziz
I’m guessing it’s a “assess domestic threat to jews from muslims” kind of thing.
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Mustafa Stefan Dill
i agree with Dawood. It does say “or related field” but that’s very vague; they do want a fluent Arabic speaker, but that’s no guarantee of objectivity. Extending the benefit of doubt, it’s not a well worded job description on thepart of the HR deapartment, at any rate.
Although I can’t find any EEO or non-discriminatory hiring practices language in the posting you linked to or on their site, it would be an interesting indicator of interfaith dialogue principles to observe thge hiring outcome if a number of well-qualified Muslims were to apply.
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thabet
Question: are far-reaching political and civil rights ultimately compatible with far-reaching social and economic rights?
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aziz
Some clarity on indefinite detention:
The Obama administration is preparing an executive order that would formalize indefinite detention without trial for some detainees at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but allow those detainees and their lawyers to challenge the basis for continued incarceration.
Fundamentally, this is the only way to proceed with goals like closing Gitmo. The only alternative is just to let everyone walk free.
Of course, some people seem to believe that *everyone* in Gitmo is just an innocent harmless person. There’s no bridging that gap, I guess.
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shams
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
that was the motto of an agency i once worked for.
its still a good motto……..but its Wikileaks motto now. -
thabet
The people in Gitmo are no more innocent and harmless than, say, Donald Rumsfeld or Dick Cheney.
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shams
you dumbass maftoon.
most of the people in gitmo were sold to the americans.-
thabet
If you weren’t such a thick orientalist racist troll, you’d realise I was actually strongly disagreeing with Aziz’s characterisation of these men as “bad guys” and actually saying if they’re dangerous criminals they can’t be worse then men like Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Obama, Biden etc. who roam around like free men or continue to make decisions which kill people.
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aziz
and you make a fair critique, as always. I don’t make teh statement lightly. The report issued by the Obama Administration itself suggested that the vast majority of detainees do in fact need to be freed – and the link I provided shows the initial step of doing just that, to subjecct the incarcerantion to a legitimate, legal process of challenge (annually).
I understand that from the leftf or the right, a centrist looks the same as an extremist. But the people who genuinely dont care about human righgts are the ones who haven problem with Gitmo existing in perpetuity, with those inside no means of challenging their incarceration. And on the other side, people argue (as Abu Noor does downthread – I am replying to him also here) that presumption of innocence is enough to simplay permit the doors to swing wide.
Lets take a poll then. What do you all beliieve shoudl be done with Gitmo detainees?
a. keep in there forever. Tough shit. (no one at Talk Islam, myself included, believes this.)
b. establish a process whereby every detainee has a procedure available to force the government to justify and defend its continued ncarceration of them.
c. presume innocence. let them all go.am I missing any options? feel free to suggest more.
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Arwi
Do you really need someone to “feel free” to suggest the existing due process in the United States? When someone is arrested here, the onus is on the govt to press charges, set a trial date, assign a defendant lawyer for those who need one etc.
The onus is not on the defendant to initiate a process forcing the govt to do anything, the defendant might not have the knowledge or means to be aware of or to initiate such a process.
I don’t see where Abu Noor advocated permitting “the doors to swing wide.”
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thabet
Despite all the nice words, I think there’s a lot of bad faith from the Obama admin regarding Guantanamo — i.e. Bagram.
The issue you raise has been addressed partly in the English legal tradition (shared/common ancestry between English and US law) by David Hope when he gave his ruling on Abu Hamza (pdf, see paras 209 to 211). Hope goes as far as to assume a lack of virtue (from the pov of Westeners) on the part of the incarcerated, and then answers why ‘even they’ deserve the right to have a fair trial:
The paradox that this system produces is that, from time to time, much time and effort has to be given to the protection of those who may seem to be the least deserving. Indeed it is just because their cases are so unattractive that the law must be especially vigilant to ensure that the standards to which everyone is entitled are adhered to. The rights that the aliens invoke in this case were designed to enshrine values that are essential components of any modern democratic society: the right not to be tortured or subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment, the right to liberty and the right to a fair trial. There is no room for discrimination here. Their protection must be given to everyone. It would be so easy, if it were otherwise, for minority groups of all kinds to be persecuted by the majority. We must not allow this to happen. Feelings of the kind that the aliens’ beliefs and conduct give rise to must be resisted for however long it takes to ensure that they have this protection.
So, yes the presumption of innocence, if it’s part of our legal system and rule of law, has to be applied to all even if we think we do not like them. Anything else is a descent into barbarism. I think Abu N does well do drive the point home when he asks you a somewhat personal question down below.
So, what evidence does the US have against these men? If none, then really I don’t see any option other than to let them go free (and then pay them compensation).
And if it does, then let’s have a proper and fair trial in an open court of law.
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shams
well…..mebbe this will help. this is Obama’s decision to make.
Justice Stewart on the pentagon papers.I think there can be but one answer to this dilemma, if dilemma it be. The responsibility must be where the power is. If the Constitution gives the Executive a large degree of unshared power in the conduct of foreign affairs and the maintenance of our national defense, then, under the Constitution, the Executive must have the largely unshared duty to determine and preserve the degree of internal security necessary to exercise that power successfully. It is an awesome responsibility, requiring judgment and wisdom of a high order. I should suppose that moral, political, and practical considerations would dictate that a very first principle of that wisdom would be an insistence upon avoiding secrecy for its own sake. For when everything is classified, then nothing is classified, and the system becomes one to be disregarded by the cynical or the careless, and to be manipulated by those intent on self-protection or self-promotion. I should suppose, in short, that the hallmark of a truly effective internal security system would be the maximum possible disclosure, recognizing that secrecy can best be preserved only when credibility is truly maintained. But, be that as it may, it is clear to me that it is the constitutional duty of the Executive — as a matter of sovereign prerogative, and not as a matter of law as the courts know law — through the promulgation and enforcement of executive regulations, to protect the confidentiality necessary to carry out its responsibilities in the fields of international relations and national defense.
i will agree with Thabet…this is Obamas geas (burden) at this point.
He has to balance attempting to stop or slow non-linear system collapse with his moral imperative to do the right thing.
interesting times.
what would you do, brother thabet?
what would you do, brother buzz?
what would you do, Noble Shayyk Abu Noor?and most important…..
what would you do, my habbibi? -
bk
Shams
I wonder if you saw this?
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shams
yeah buzz….i lurve Dr. Atran.
he is the wisest atheist i know.
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shams
wallah, you have put up a sarc tag then.
it just looked like your regular maftoon crapology to me.-
shams
should have put up a sarc tag.
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shams
welcome back thabet.
(((hugs)))
nevah change.
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Aziz,
I don’t understand why you claim to be a supporter of human rights yet you ridicule the presumption of innocence. .
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aziz
Simply put, the existing framework of international law is insufficient to handle the case of extra-national terrorism. We are in the early stages of evolving towards extending that framework, and doing it much more rigorously under the present administration than the previous one.
Frankly, the number of muslim lives saved in muslim ciuntries thanks to the incarceration without legal justificatioin of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is incalculable. or have you forgotten that most victims of l Qaeda are our own muslim brothers?
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Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
Again, Aziz, these type of calculations…how much good you imagine comes out of the government getting to lock up whoever it wants, are not the type of arguments one would expect from someone who values human rights.
I’m sure there are plenty of cops here in Chicago who could tell you “if you just let me lock up the people I know are the bad guys for as long as I think they need to be locked up then we’d save hundreds of lives a year and the quality of life in the city would be much better. (Of course assuming you’re not one of the people the cop happens to think is a bad guy).
That doesn’t mean we can should do it, and it doesn’t mean we can start messing around with the rights those people have to try to ensure they are convicted.
Listen, Obama is not an absolute ruler and I see your argument that his proposal is better than nothing and he also has to deal with what Congress will accept.
But, I know this much…neither Obama nor you would accept if yourself or your family member was treated this way….so it is immoral for you to find it acceptable for other people and other people’s family members to be treated this way….and people’s rights have absolutely nothing to do with their virtue or lack of it…nothing…if you don’t understand that, you don’t understand anything about the concept of human rights, rights that inhere in every human, not those whom Aziz likes or those who are innocent or anything like that.
The other issue is that you for some reason seem to have some trust in this “process” that will be set up. I find that laughable given the history of what has been done with these individuals and the explicit arguments Holder has made in the past that the govt will choose whatever process or lack of process it thiks benefits it, and that the govt will hold whoever it wants to hold as long as it wants regardless of the results of any processes, even criminal trial acquittals.
The vast majority of these people were not picked up on any battlefield. If they cannot be proven guilty in a fair trial beyond a reasonable doubt they should be set free. That’s what the UDHR says, that’s what the Constitution says…documents you claim to revere, right Aziz.
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aziz
Since you insist on conflating the detainees in Guantanamo – all of them, not just the ones whose status could be resolved with a mechanism for review – with the person off the street, there’s not much common ground to find here, I guess.
I certainly support the UDHR, but it is not a complete document because it was written in an era predating the modern problem of terrorism. It is a statement of principles to try and uphold, which are universal. But law is different; law must be written to tray and attain those ideals but providing mechanisms and due process. Due process isjust that, a process.
We are taking baby steps, long overdue (by 8 years), to develop those processes.
You ignored my question above. Whats your solution? Let everyone go?
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abunoor
Aziz, this is the heart of the point. I am not really sure what you mean when you say I insist on conflating all the detainees on Guantanamo…what I insist is that people are presumed innocent unless proven guilty, what you are suggesting, I guess, is that the U.S. government has the right to pick people off the street and say this is a bad terrorist so he is not entitled to rights that other people are entitled. How can this be acceptable? I find it baffling that you place this much faith in the govt when you yourself seem to admit that many or perhaps the majority of people in this system have been held unjustly for years…
Yes, the government should produce proof at a criminal trial that any indidvidual it wishes to hold is guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt or it should let them go immediately.
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Dan
Ironic coming from someone who is unusually silent anytime Islamic governments do the same thing too.
But I guess it’s perfectly okay as long as they are implementing Shariah, right? To hell with Western human rights then!
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abunoor
Dan, no matter how many times you say this it won’t be true.
I don’t support any government in the world, nor do I believe any government is implementing Shari’ah in a way that I support or find attractive.
Point me to a single example of me defending oppression or violations of human rights by a government because it is Shari’ah.
This is not to say that I necessarily unreservedly endorse the details of human rights as understood by western secular thinkers…that is complicated and interesting discussion….
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aziz
Dan, the adults are having a discussion.
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shams
Of course, some people seem to believe that *everyone* in Gitmo is just an innocent harmless person.
but of course you’re right, Aziz.
even if the people in gitmo were innocent 7 years of unjust imprisonment and torture has prolly made them into hardcore terrorists by now. -
thabet
Of course, some people seem to believe that *everyone* in Gitmo is just an innocent harmless person.
This is disappointing.
AFAICS, the “some people” who are most loud about Gitmo believe that those being accused of crimes should be able to see the evidence against them, question their accuser, have fair open trials and not be subject to inhumane and degrading conditions.
None of these “some people” ever expressed the view that those being held in Gitmo were cuddly religious liberals who hold woolly views on gay marriage or religious tolerance, attend church fetes and mingle regularly at interfaith sessions.
I expected better of you, Aziz.
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Yakoub
Of course, some people seem to believe that *everyone* in Gitmo is just an innocent harmless person.
They are ALL human beings who should be treated according to the criteria laid down in international human rights conventions, not treated like an animals by an Imperium that thinks it can do what it likes as long as its own interest is served. Bush and Bliar are probably more guilty of crimes against humanity than anyone held in Gitmo.
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aziz
a “Heavy, sits the crown”, sort of thing?
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bk
This is all nonsense as long as it is a partisan discussion. One or two of you try to take the high road talking about gitmo detainees as human beings with internationally chartered rights, and then you hang a U-turn for finger-pointersville with your special prosecuter self-righteous condemnations of various western politicians or states.
The US or UK are certainly not special unless you want to talk about being especially self-conscious about detaining muslims. Most countries don’t even think about this shit. Gitmo detainees go down a rathole never to be seen again….standard procedure…no thinking or hand-wringing required.
The only hypocrisy is claiming America, for example, is better than that when we can see that the US is really not as special as it used to pretend and convince everyone. So now is the international pile-on of anti-yankee disappointment. Big F@cking Deal.
What matters in Israel, in Palestinian Territories, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Iran, U.K. and the United States is only a standard by which all conduct can be judged. Not special partisan party favors.
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Yakoub
There’s nothing partisan about the International Convention on Human Rights.
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thabet
‘International norms’ only matter when the US wants to berate its enemies, invade countries, and bomb people. Otherwise, it’s just partisan anti-American hatred, Yakoub. Don’t you know that eternal truth being articled by the troll above you? When Beloved Barack comes live on television in the Middle East and berates Country X for violating international norms, or visits a country in the region to lecture people on the virtues of non-violence, he is to be hailed as the greatest thing ever. Just don’t dare point out why is he talking utter bollocks!
Racists like Buzz Troll aren’t satisfied by a ten-year blood lust in revenge for 9/11. They’ll scream “Justice for 9/11″ at the top of their voices without realising that countless (quite literally countless) people have died or had their lives ruined in US wars, torture, rendition, kidnapping. But to racist tartuffes like the troll above you, this isn’t enough. They’d like more, whether it is dressed up as right-wing compassionate conservatism or the supra-rational “12-th dimensional chess [centre-right liberalism]” of St Barack.
And when it is asked what about some measure of justice for those on the end of empire?, you will hear them shriek “partisan”, “anti-Americanism”, “Obama hater”, “you don’t understand the math!”, “you want Palin instead????”, etc. And when evidence is brought forward of the mainstream nature of war and empire in US politics, that the current White House is no more or less committed to empire, militarism, etc as its supposed far more nefarious predecessor, their shrill voices shift the blame to maniacal evil forces like ‘The Jews’ or deranged demands for uppity ‘immigrants’ to shut up in White Man’s Country.
And Buzz Troll, yes I will delete your responses to me or my threads. Get a hint: racist antisemites like you are not welcome here.
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bk
If you had any self-respect you wouldn’t continue to troll on here. I hear your friends at Stormfront might be more accommodating to your Jew-bating and Paki-bashing.
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shams
im confused……how can buzz and thabet both be racist antisemites?
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shams
thabet, cher, u dont unnerstand the ergonomics of 911.
OBL junk-punched Big White American Christian Bwana in the economic junk. it was spectacularily successful. but it was serendipity, largely, because the merican economy was a castle built on sand.
now Julian Assange has junk-punched America in cyberspace just like OBL did in meatspace.
watch and see what happens next. -
shams
Racists like Buzz Troll aren’t satisfied by a ten-year blood lust in revenge for 9/11. They’ll scream “Justice for 9/11″ at the top of their voices without realising that countless (quite literally countless) people have died or had their lives ruined in US wars, torture, rendition, kidnapping. But to racist tartuffes like the troll above you, this isn’t enough. They’d like more, whether it is dressed up as right-wing compassionate conservatism or the supra-rational “12-th dimensional chess [centre-right liberalism]” of St Barack.
well….reaction to 911 at this point (post making Bush’s uberstupid mistakes of the Bush Doctrine and COIN) is an attempt to stop non-linear system collapse on O’s part, not any sort of 13D chess. Do you unnerstand systems theory, Thabet?
Linear system failure can be choked off at fail points….non-linear system collapse cannot be stopped as easily. for example, bailing the banks didnt fix the economy. Systems that fail linearly have break points that maybe used to halt the failure, ex. clearing a in front of a forest fire to keep it from jumping.
Systems that fail non-linearly can still fail even if you repair parts of the system. Say, propping up the banks, but consumer demand falls of anyways causing mass bankruptcies that lead to the banks failing anyways.
the same thing is happening with the American modern security state.
closing gitmo is a single point in a non-linear system collapse.
it wont work.
we will still become a police state on our way to non-linear system collapse. at least that is what Assange believes. -
thabet
watch and see what happens next.
I watched. And saw this:
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thabet
Do you unnerstand systems theory, Thabet?
Seeing as though I studied information systems and at postgraduate level, I would hope so.
But there you go again: invoking jargon and mysticism to defend what is in plain sight: Bagram is still open for business.
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shams
invoking jargon and mysticism to defend what is in plain sight: Bagram is still open for business.
but im a mystic. what do you expect from meh?
again, Bagram is still open, the us gov is hiring cybermerc skidies and spammers to DDOS wikileaks servers, has a contract out on AMERICAN CITIZEN al-Awlaki, and torturing Bradley Manning to get him to flip on Assange. Gitmo is still open.
Since you are a systems guru, how would you stave off or slow NLS collapse for America if you were Obama?
i think….its hotfixes, patching. trying to use existing sub-systems, while you move the collapse point farther out.
i dont see what else he can do.
there are no break points in NL systems….you know that.
bailing the banks didn’t fix the economy. closing gitmo wont fix bagram or the other redition sites….and the pentagon papers didnt fix murrrican jeebus democracyimperialismarmed missionary aggression, did they?
we learned nothing.
Obama is using some optimization algorithm that he has designed to slow NLSC.
i dont know what…simulated annealing perhaps?
but brother thabet….what would you do, system guru? -
shams
/taps foot impatiently.
c’mon brother thabet, you’re the systems guru. i was never anythin’ but a software puke….i guess that is pretty mystical.
How would you slow NLSC (nonlinear system collapse) of the american system?
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bk
Exactly Yakoub.
That is all I’m saying.
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Arwi is discussing. 
abunoor is discussing. 
Dawood are discussing. 
shams, 
thabet, 
bk, and 6 others are discussing. 
amusement park fracas over hijab, ” up to 100 cops from surrounding departments converged on the park” is sad, ludicrous and hilarious all at the same time.
I really wish the “notify” checkbox was unchecked by default.