Tagged: America Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts

  • aziz 8:48 am on January 22, 2012 Permalink
    Tags: America, ,   

    THIS is why there’s ZERO chance of the US becoming Jesusland: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/22/religious-right-leaders-say-santorum-but-voters-flock-to-gingrich.html

     

    • shams 9:56 am on January 22, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The US is ALREADY Distributed Jesusland™
      that is what the 2010 elections were about.
      Didnt you read my post?

      • aziz 6:32 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        i read your post, but reading is not the same as “uncritical acceptance of your frame and theorizing”

        you’re long on the theoretical and short on the empirical.

        • shams 7:15 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          orly?
          did you read Manzi’s Paradox of Libertarianism that inspired my invention of Distributed Jesusland?
          Heres your empirical data. Distributed Jesusland is the 2008 Jesusland map minus the majority minority cities.

          Razib chose the wrong side when he chose Diana Moon over me as a front pager and GNXP (Godless and the Derb) pimped Sarah Palin…
          Like Nate Silver says, demographics is destiny.

    • VisionPresident 9:52 pm on January 23, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Religiously and politically, I re-discovered what America is supposed to be. It is a country founded by universalists, Masons, who believed in a Creator but also understood that their specific routes to discover the Creator are never to be imposed on others. Our founders recognized that our Creator has reserved the right to call each of us differently, so they guaranteed a freedom of religion in our constitution. In this way, each person can discover their own route to God, Allah, Yahweh, the Great Spirit, the Great I am, Our Father – whatever name you wish to call your Creator.

      “Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor – over each other.” – Thomas Jefferson

      America’s founders realized that a man should never to attempt to push a religious ideology on another man. Instead, religions should be encouraged to co-exist in peace so that the best of all the religions can be displayed. This religious enlightenment led to my political enlightenment, for this same philosophy can be applied to foreign policy. No country should attempt to push their ideology on another country. Instead, the nations should be encouraged to co-exist in peace so that the best of all the governments can be displayed. “Difference of opinion is advantageous in world politics. The several nations perform the office of a Censor – over each other.”

      “I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.” – Thomas Jefferson

      This was America’s course at the onset and is still its proper course today. We are meant to live in peace, to live in tolerance, to live in love, and to care for each other. We are not to judge, nor are we meant to create a Government that tells people how they need to worship. We must leave that to our Creator. And war, violence, death… they are not a part of our Creator’s vision for us. We are meant to be free and peaceful, and the term “religious war” makes no sense.

      “The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I believe that, politically, America must dramatically downsize its military and bring its forces back within its borders. This is what America will look like in a peaceful world. America must become completely energy self-sufficient. America must empower the United Nations and rely on the various countries to maintain the peace. America must once again become that peaceful, tolerant, free, and loving country we were meant to be, we were created to be, and let the world function in peace. The question for our day is… will the world be peaceful? Or is this naive?

      “An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.” – Thomas Jefferson

      Historically, outside forces prevented America from living in peace. Great powers attempted to rule us, invaded us, and World Wars were thrust upon us – not the other way around. I know America has been involved in more than its fair share of wars, but to be fair, England invaded us, Pirates attacked us, and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Hitler brought ethnic cleansing and the invasion of Europe and Russia. Saddam used chemical weapons on Iran and his people, and then invaded a peaceful Kuwait to loot their treasury. Al-Qaeda attacked us and the Taliban supported them. To call America a war-monger is not historically accurate, as America has always just wanted peace. If a peaceful and tolerant world is achievable, America will gladly draw down to realize it.

      “I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.” – Thomas Jefferson

      The question I’m left with for my brothers in our day, for all of mankind, is this: If America’s military was to leave every foreign country, if its military budget was to shrink to only that required to defend itself from invasion, if it resigned itself to simply being a vote in the UN, if it accepted the correct political action – would the world accept the correct religious action? Would the world accept peace and religious tolerance?

      “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.” – Thomas Jefferson

      Or would it use the military draw down to once again set out to impose its religious views, to destroy itself in war and violence in the name of God, Christ, Yahweh, or Allah? After America’s military retreat, will it still be termed the great Satan, the great Unbeliever, the Infidel that needed to be destroyed? Would Israel and the Jews still be considered by some as a race and religion that needed to be wiped off the face of the earth? Would America’s drawdown usher in peace or war? For there will never be peace without tolerance.

      “Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.” – Thomas Jefferson

      You see, I’ve discovered that religion and politics are tied hand in hand. And peace will be impossible until we, as a world, see this truth. The right answer in Faith is to discover and follow your Lord, but the right answer in Government is to reject a King’s rule – for man is not God and should never Lord over us. These two right answers are difficult to embrace together. Consider that the one who attempted to overthrow his “King” in Heaven is termed Satan and called evil. Many religious leaders today use this same logic. They label themselves as “Supreme,” “Prophet,” “Mujahidin,” and consider any dissent as sacrilegious and punishable. They use violence to enforce their vision of God, and this is not God’s vision. Many still view man-made Theocracies and government-imposed religion as the right answer.

      “I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.” – Thomas Jefferson

      So how can we rectify this? Can the world embrace peace, democracy, freedom, and universal religious tolerance at the same time? If so, America should withdraw and draw down immediately. But if not, if the various faiths will use our retreat as a sign to impose their Caliphate and Sharia Law, to cleanse the world of the “unbelievers” as they see it, to eliminate communities who do not share their beliefs, then what is a free people to do? Thoughts?

      • shams 4:43 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        if you are a universalist and a Jeffersonian as you say, then do you think that proselytizing is immoral?

      • shams 4:46 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “But if not, if the various faiths will use our retreat as a sign to impose their Caliphate and Sharia Law”

        shariah law is the rule of law in islamic nations.
        it is the consent of the governed, or classical hellenic democracy.
        You are no universalist.
        Faker.

      • shams 4:56 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “To call America a war-monger is not historically accurate, as America has always just wanted peace. If a peaceful and tolerant world is achievable, America will gladly draw down to realize it.”

        this is an incredibly naive and unsophisticated view of American FP. Viet Nam, anyone?
        plz. America’s foreign policy has been Regime Change. In MENA, either 50 years of “Searching for Ataturk” or the incredibly illformed Bush Doctrine and COIN, or Operation Ajax and the Mossadegh coup.
        The only reason reigime change worked in Japan and Germany is the US invader/occupiers outlawed emperor worship and naziism.
        Since it was impossible to outlaw Islam in MENA, all America’s attempts at regime change have been epic fails.

      • shams 5:00 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        They label themselves as “Supreme,” “Prophet,” “Mujahidin,” and consider any dissent as sacrilegious and punishable. They use violence to enforce their vision of God, and this is not God’s vision. Many still view man-made Theocracies and government-imposed religion as the right answer.

        i find your ignorance of al-Islam incredibly offensive.
        Great front pager choice my habbibi.
        I’d rather have Bush-fellating Dean Esmay back.

      • shams 5:22 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “would the world accept the correct religious action? Would the world accept peace and religious tolerance?”
        LOL! the “correct religious action”?
        so much bulshytt, so little time.
        lol @ your xian version of “religious tolerance.”
        GTFO out of the regime change business, Amerikkka.
        Vision, i think you need to read this.
        then praps we can talk.

    • visionpresident 7:27 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      My friend, I in no way meant to offend you. I am happy to read your views, hear your thoughts, and listen to your ideas. I came to this website for that purpose actually. I thought to start the conversation, the constructive dialogue, with my current belief structure. In fact, after I approached the site, I was asked to share. So I provided my thoughts on what I believe our Democracy was, is, and should be, and why I believe We, as a world, are struggling to find peace. Religious intolerance. I am no expert in Sharia Law – I don’t claim to be. I have no experience in it, I don’t claim it is an evil or good, and I admit I am ignorant to your views and faith. Is Islam tolerant of other faiths or not? Please, you tell me.

      I thought “Talk Islam” might be a way to enlighten myself. From your posts, it appears you got very defensive and angry. Although I don’t understand why ignorance offends you – it should spur you to enlighten. Your site now seems to be a meeting place for like minded people to spout intolerance of te ignorant, more of the same. I was hoping for something different, something constructive. I will read the link provided, thank you for that. Perhaps it will change my vision, good things do. And I will read the Quran, I hope that will enlighten as well. Thank you for your time and may Allah bless your days.

      • shams 9:30 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “Is Islam tolerant of other faiths or not? Please, you tell me.”

        al-Islam is tolerant of other faiths but intolerant of proselytization.
        the 1990 CDHRI (Cairo declaration of Islamic Human Rights).

        Article 10 of the Declaration states: “Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism.”

        but true Islam is universalist i think.
        “And for every nation is a messenger. So when their Messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.” [Quran 10:47] And: “And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying]: ‘Worship Allaah and avoid Taaghoot [i.e., false deities]‘. And among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed [i.e., travel] through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.”

        Nearly a thousand years after Bayazid, the poet and saint Mazhar Jan-i-Janan of Delhi (1699-1781), who was responsible for all the sufi orders—Naqshbandi, Qadiri and Chishti—in India, wrote in a letter to disciple: “You should know that the Merciful Being, in the beginning of creation, sent a book named Ved; this is apparent from the ancient scripture of the Indians. This book is in four parts [Rig Veda, Sama Veda, Yajur Veda and Atharva Veda] [and is] meant to regulate the duties of the people in this world and the next through the instrumentality of the divine Brahma, who is omnipotent. Now it must be borne in mind that the Koran states: ‘And there is not a people to whom a warner has not been sent’ [35:24]; and further, ‘To every land we have sent a warner’ [25:51] Hence there were prophets in India as in other countries and their accounts are to be found in their books. How could God, the Beneficent, the Merciful, have left out of his grace such an extensive portion of the globe?”

        muslims do not believe in original sin. instead we believe mankind is forgetful. we believe all children are born innocent, pre-”saved”. That is why we say all children are born muslim.

        My First Shayyk, Muhyyidin (scholar of scholars) Abu Abdullah Muhammed ibn Ali ibn Muhammed ibn Arabi:

        “Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you—indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another.”

        i am a mevlevi sufi, i follow Rumi because ibn Arabi founded no school.
        there are many schools that would disagree with parts of my analysis.
        and i am neither a mufasir nor a trained islamic jurist, so i must rely on the teachings of the Saints and the scholarship of the Wali (friends of god) and the Companions.

        also i follow Bayazid.

        The Persian sufi Abu Yazid (also rendered Bayazid) Bistani (804-874), grandson of a Zoroastrian, traveled from Delhi to Damascus, conversing with scholars of many traditions. The Indian scholar RM Zaehneer has linked Bayazid’s concepts of whadat al-wujud (unity of being) and wahdat al-shuhud (unity of consciousness) with the Vedanta tradition of the Hindu sage Sankara. Bayazid’s concept of fana (“annihilation”—of the ego, in modern terms) has parallels in the Hindu moksha or samadhi, and the Buddhist nirvana.

      • shams 9:42 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        you may be able to redeem your initial comments with me at least with Jeffersonian scholarship.
        He is also one of my shayyks.

      • shams 9:49 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        “It is a country founded by universalists, Masons, who believed in a Creator but also understood that their specific routes to discover the Creator are never to be imposed on others”

        yet, proselytizing, ie spreading the “good word”, is viewed as an imposition by muslims everywhere.
        Do you see the flaw in your thought?

      • shams 10:01 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        dont feel special.
        All ignorance offends me.

    • visionpresident 7:53 pm on January 24, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      My friend, my ignorance over Islam should not offend you.

      “Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I realize I am ignorant about Islam, that’s why I came here. I don’t know what a “xian version of religious tolerance is,” perhaps you can tell me. I could do without the expletives though…

      “When angry count to ten before you speak. If very angry, count to one hundred.” – Thomas Jefferson

      You mention proselytizing – I never heard the term until now. Although I don’t see why it is a “flaw in my thought,” as I had no such thought, I will agree whole-heartedly that my mission is never to “show you why my path to God is right.” For indeed, as a universalist, I don’t believe that mine is necessarily right for others, much less would I ever deem to enforce such a notion. This is God’s business, not mine. If you have found our Creator, than I am happy for you my brother. I have discovered Him as well, but I also realize I have yet many more things to learn.

      “I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led, and bearding every authority which stood in their way.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I feel like my Creator is speaking to me, and he is telling me to continue my journey. I am not claiming this as truth, nor am I asking you to believe it. But because I believe it, I would like to see what some other roads have to say – that is all. Rest assured, I am not here to proselytize you. In fact, I’m very skeptical of anyone who claims to know God and then proceeds to tell me the “right” answers. I would much prefer to seek out information, compare various thoughts, ponder and pray on them, and then determine my own opinion.

      “Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I don’t know what you would expect me to “redeem” in my initial comments, so I won’t try. Nor do I intend to debate you on whether or not America is peaceful at heart. I believe we are, but you are free to believe otherwise. Some say we shouldn’t have supported the rebels in Libya, some say we were right to. Perhaps we should have let Saddam remain in Kuwait after his invasion, I don’t know. Maybe we should not have supported the Afghan rebels against the Soviets, or the Vietnamese or South Koreans for that matter. Trying to ensure food aid gets to Somalia, preventing ethnic cleansing in Serbia – heck, maybe we should have let Hitler own Europe. Maybe Al-Qaeda and the Taliban could have been handled better – I have my opinions but in the end, I don’t know. I didn’t come here to debate you on these issues, and you are welcome to your own opinions. These are difficult questions – war is always difficult. War is a terrible thing, hopefully we can agree on that.

      “I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I came here solely to determine if Islam will help me to better know my Creator and, if so, inquire as to where I should begin to learn about it. I am open to all ideas, I am afraid of none. I don’t think any man or any religion has God all figured out, and I thought “Talk Islam” might be a good place to learn about your religion and your views on Allah.

      “Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” – Thomas Jefferson

      I opened with some of my political leanings because I was asked to. I am now hoping to try a different tack if that’s ok with you. I don’t mean to offend you so I’ll keep my personal thoughts to myself unless and until you ask for them again. I did read the article “America’s god is dying” that you directed me to. I didn’t think America had subscribed to a particular belief on God… perhaps that is his point.

      “He who knows best knows how little he knows.” – Thomas Jefferson

      In any case, here are my questions for you, feel free to take them wherever you deem they should be taken:

      1) Does Islam preach that it is the only religion that has correctly figured out who and what Allah is? If so, is it fair to say that in your opinion the only ones who “really” know our Creator are Muslims?

      2) Do you believe that you will be with the Creator one day? If so, do you believe that the only other people who will be with Him are Muslims?

      3) Do you believe that there are certain men in political leadership positions here on earth that speak directly for Allah? Meaning, like the Pope of the Catholic church, do you believe that men speak things that are unquestionable by other men?

      4) What constitues an “infidel” in you view? And, do you believe infidels should be punished or destroyed?

      5) Do you believe that it is the role of government police forces to not only provide security, but to enforce religious adherence and tradition?

      6) Do you believe that America is the Great Satan, the Great Unbeliever, the Infidel that needs to be destroyed? And if so, would you still believe this even if America were to completely withdraw all military forces from the world to within its borders?

      7) Do you believe the Jews in Israel constitute a religion and a nation that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth?

      8) Do you believe that all “true” Muslims believe the same things, or is it tolerated for different people to believe different things within the faith?

      Your honest answers to these questions will help me in my studies.

      “I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson

      And whatever your answers, please know in advance that I thank you for taking the time to answer them.

      “I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.” – Thomas Jefferson

      Yours in Faith for a better America and a better World.

    • visionpresident 2:13 pm on January 25, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Lastly, and probably most importantly, what would you recommend I do next if I wanted to continue my search to discover our Creator?

      I am considering looking into the Gnostic Bible and writings – thoughts from Islam about that? Thanks for your insight.

      • shams 10:19 am on January 26, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        i would say read the Noble Quran(i prefer Muhammed Asad’s translation), read the great islamic scholars like Ghazali and Ibn Arabi. Read the Vedas, read the gnostic bible.
        Read the sapentia poetica of the Sufi Saints.
        You have a cartoonish version of al-Islam in your head, like most westerners.
        i was raised orthodox catholic, became an atheist in high school, and reverted to Islam while studying arabic.

        there are others here that are well qualified to correct your ignorance…..if they will.

    • visionpresident 11:30 am on January 26, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Many thanks my friend, I will follow your lead. I especially like what your teacher once shared with you:

      “Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you—indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another.”

      I’m disappointed that such Truth eluded me for so long, but I’m joyful today that the journey continues. I’m thankful that my version of al-Islam is cartoonish – this is re-assuring to me. Not surprisingly, the uneducated and ignorant version of the Truth is not true at all. I look forward to replacing the western cartoon with educated knowledge, and have cut and pasted your post of suggested readings for future reference – I will read the works you mention.

      I was raised catholic, became a wandering Protestant, then claimed myself a non-denominational Christian. Now I’ve reverted to my “Seek and ye shall find” religion and it will be my religion until the day I pass from this world.

      Perhaps my journey will cause me to one day call myself a Muslim, I don’t know. Or maybe I’ll go back full circle to the beginning and realize I’m Jewish – I have yet to delve much into their belief structure either. For now though, I just call myself a God-lover, a fellow mankind lover, and a seeker…. and I like my “religion.” I’ll seek it all out, and let the Holy Spirit separate the wheat from the chaff.

      You have given me readings to continue my journey, thank you my friend. This is what I needed. Thanks again for your direction and for your patience with my ignorance. If there are others there well qualified to correct my ignorance but unwilling to do so, then I do not seek their wisdom. “Knock, and the door will be opened to you.” Either they do not have the knowledge I seek, or I do not yet have the ability to comprehend their wisdom. Either way, if the door doesn’t open when I knock upon it, I should leave.

      But I knocked here at “Talk Islam,” and I thank you for opening your door.

      May Allah’s light be upon you and bless you in your days.

      Yours in Faith.

      • shams 8:27 am on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        your questions reek of islamophobia. they are rude and offensive.
        many here are far better qualified to answer your questions than i.
        it is curious indeed that they do not.

        it is admirable that you wish to become a wali, a friend of god. but you are going about it the wrong way.
        some sapentia poetica from TS.

        You say I am repeating
        Something I have said before. I shall say it again.
        Shall I say it again? In order to arrive there,
        To arrive where you are, to get from where you are not,
        You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstacy.
        In order to arrive at what you do not know
        You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.
        In order to possess what you do not possess
        You must go by the way of dispossession.
        In order to arrive at what you are not
        You must go through the way in which you are not.
        And what you do not know is the only thing you know
        And what you own is what you do not own
        And where you are is where you are not.

      • shams 8:59 am on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        and this…from the Muhyyidin.

        O Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
        My heart has become capable of every form:
        it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
        and a temple for idols and the pilgrim’s Ka’bah,
        and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Qur’an.
        I follow the Caravan of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take,
        that is my religion and my faith.

    • visionpresident 12:23 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Thank you again for your comments and direction – the Lord reveals their truth to me. I am thankful that my questions were offensive to you, it demonstrates I’ve found the right place. And I apologize for my offense – I will no longer ask these questions, I assure you. I know why the others there will not answer them. Proverbs 26:4

      “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest though also be like unto him.”

      But you have done better. You embodied Proverbs 26:5, and answered the fool enough to reveal his foolishness. And not just to the enlightened around you, for they already are aware and to do this helps no one, but you strove to reveal the foolishness to the fool himself. I salute your wisdom, I applaud your answers, and I thank you for your guidance.

      I may be an ignorant fool, but I know that – and I no longer wish to remain so. I am not searching for a religion, for I have found mine. I am searching only for our God of love, and He is inside of me. He always has been. Like a sculpturer, I must remove myself from Him so that He can be revealed. He is with me as I write this, He writes this very word. I must sacrifice my worldly self and embrace my heavenly one.

      So now, to the task at hand. I will read the writings you provided and many others from those who have been able to accomplish this before me. I have so much to discover, so much to do. They are our guides in this world and a fool is wise to follow them. I love your quotes, thank you. I am so looking forward to reading the enlightened and to bettering myself by removing me from it. Perhaps one day I too, as you have done, can help to enlighten others.

      “I follow the Caravan of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take, that is my religion and my faith.”

      Amen.

    • visionpresident 1:18 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      But my friend, as I work on improving me, as a man, I discover that our duty is to improve us, as a Body. Allah and I will continue to work on me. My question is about us:

      Would us, as a Body, be better off if the United States was more or less involved militarily in the world? What US military posture and strategy do you believe is right for our present day?

      • visionpresident 1:22 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I ask not because I believe I have the answer, but because I seek it.

        • visionpresident 3:04 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Or would I be wiser not to be concerned about such things?

    • Mc Kiernan 5:48 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

    • shams 4:49 am on January 28, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      While the oppressive, atheist-communist regime of North Korea is (again) the worst persecutor of Christians in the world, it must be observed that the rest of the Top 10 are Islamic. In fact, 38 of worst 50 countries persecuting Christians are predominantly Muslim.

      i’ll answer His Grace. The Miraculous Quran forbids proselytization of the poor and ignorant. Christianity exploits proselytization of the poor and ignorant.
      The Noble Quran mandates a proportionate response to the Proselytizers, and invasion and occupation, or regime change via coups and propping tyrants in a doomed search for another Ataturk gets a a pretty radical proportionate response.

    • VisionPresident 12:03 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      So is “invasion and occupation, regime change via coups, propping tyrants” something that the poor and ignorant feel Christians are doing – justifying a radical proportionate response against all Christians? Or do they believe it to be a US phenomena? A Western phenomena? And most importantly, what needs to happen to get it all to stop?

      What needs to take place so that the poor and ignorant do not feel exploited by Christian proselytizers? Or by the US, or the West, or whomever they feel is exploiting them?

      If US troops occupied no other country but the US, stopped giving any money or aid to any foreign governments, and relegated itself to whatever the UN decided as far as world political affairs, would that help or hurt religious persecution numbers? Would that help to bring about religious tolerance and peace in the world?

      • VisionPresident 4:04 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        And of course its not just the poor and ignorant who feel that Christians (or US, or Western World) are proselytizing? I’m poor and ignorant and can see that view but smart and wealthy feel this way too. What would Christians (or US, or West) need to do to put out a sincere and well received olive branch to usher in peace?

        • shams 8:40 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          stop pushing.
          wait for defense against proselytization to go out of mutawatir.
          stop meddling.

          [first lines]
          Teacher: Earth that was could no longer sustain our numbers, we were so many. We found a new solar system, dozens of planets and hundreds of moons. Each one terraformed, a process taking decades, to support human life, to be new Earths. The Central Planets formed the Alliance. Ruled by an interplanetary parliament, the Alliance was a beacon of civilization. The savage outer planets were not so enlightened and refused Alliance control. The war was devastating, but the Alliance’s victory over the Independents ensured a safer universe. And now everyone can enjoy the comfort and enlightenment of our civilization.

          Young River: People don’t like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right. We’re meddlesome.

          we have no right.

    • visionpresident 3:19 pm on January 29, 2012 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Yes my friend, I understand. Thank you again for your teaching. I can continue in peace to work on me, and pray in the Lord that we will continue to work on us. Much thanks for all of your insight, patience, and direction.

      Yours in Faith for a better World.

  • aziz 2:33 pm on April 5, 2011 Permalink
    Tags: America, Founding Fathers,   

    The Library of Congress has some interesting early documents on the Founders’ attitudes towards Islam. Really fascinating stuff.

     

  • Shams al-Nahar 9:46 am on September 13, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, How We LOST in Iraq, ,   

    Running backwards.

     

  • Shams al-Nahar 3:03 pm on June 12, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, , , Steven den Beste   

    Once again Steven Den Beste, my first and much beloved sempai-sama, takes a stab at intellectual seppuku.
    I think the best response is…..Steven…..our side, the side of “our better angels”, already won. We elected a black man and a public intellectual. All that is left is the weeping and the gnashing of teeth on the other side.
    Obama is the president of all americans….if he isn’t that, hes an oligarch supported by the intellectual elite…365 to 173. ;)
    The Grand Experiment of american self-governance is a tension between two sides of inherited human personality traits.

    Researchers at UofT have shown that the psychological concern for compassion and equality is associated with a liberal mindset, while the concern for order and respect of social norms is associated with a conservative mindset.

    No where in the constitution does it say that stupid, fearful, reactionary racists are denied self representation. But knowledge accrues. What we see now in America is the Epic Fail of All Conservative Memes.
    1. the Free Market. The unregulated invisible hand of the market just punched America’s working class in the face. Like Dr. Pournelle says,

    I have been trying to tell people this for a long time. Unrestrained capitalism leads to child sex slaves and human flesh for sale in the market place. Very few will approve; most will condemn; but it only takes a few to take “new bold steps” in exercising their “freedom.”
    The remedy is not to regulate everything, but to use some sense in where you get your notions of justice. But that’s a matter for a much longer essay by someone in better shape than I am.
    The usual pattern of regulations leads to stagflation. No regulation leads to horrors. Astonishing! Perhaps it is time to get out Aristotle and Cicero again…

    2. the Center Right Nation. America IS a center right nation. But 50 years of boutique libertarianism and the Southern Strategy has rendered the GOP brand toxic to dark-skinned conservatives. And the Tea Party Movement is not republican FISCAL, it is republican FRINGE. The TPM is just as toxic to minorities and the youth demographic…if not moreso.
    3. a Decisive President and a Strong Defense unfortunately turned into an intellectually incurious and belligerently stupid chief executive that initiated wars of choice and is still unable to admit disastrous errors in the face of mountainous empirical evidence.
    4. the White Patriarchy Model of social cohesion is dust and ashes since blacks and women got the vote. the new model of social cohesion evolving is Social Democracy. without a viable social compact to offer minorities and women, the GOP is simply DOA as the demographic timer on non-hispanic caucs runs down.

    Empathy correlates with higher IQ. Religiosity correlates with lower IQ.
    The rightwing personality type exhibits much lower empathy and much higher religiosity.
    Scientific knowledge accrues. Eventually, the conservative personality will be proven to correlate with statistically lower IQ than the liberal one. Conservatives suspect this now. Like Julian Sanchez says, modern conservatism is an inferiority complex masquerading as a political philosophy. Science and empirical data are eroding all the core conservative meme complexes with reality. I expect that when the negative correlation of conservative personality and IQ becomes a scientific fact a shift in self described party affiliation will occur.
    And no one wants to be in the Stupid Party.
    C’mon steven, you were an engineer and a scientist.
    Yeah, we get that you hate Obama. Why wouldn’t you? Obama is the avatar of Jefferson’s natural aristoi, and the repudiation made flesh of 50 years of conservative dogma and fake-libertarianism.
    In the old days of the USS Clueless you were never one for magical thinking.
    You could rise to meet your destiny like Miyazaki’s Prince.
    Or not, I guess.

    Wise Woman: You cannot escape your destiny O Prince Ashitaka.
    You can only rise to meet it.

    aww AllahP sez theres no trackbacks! but i gave Steven one!

     

    • aziz 6:37 am on June 14, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Empathy correlates with higher IQ. Religiosity correlates with lower IQ.

      huh. cite please, for both statements?

      • shams 7:28 am on June 14, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        amg.
        what am i, freakin’ diogenes?
        religiosity and IQ
        empathy (expressed as tolerance) and IQ

        • aziz 10:11 am on June 14, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          15 and 16 year olds? come on.

          also, i dont agree that empathy = tolerance

          • Shams al-Nahar 1:55 pm on June 14, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            okfine
            “the psychological concern for compassion and equality” == tolerance
            then….
            tolerance correlates positively with higher IQ
            u win my habbibi. ;)

            • aziz 8:12 pm on June 14, 2010 Permalink

              tolerance is the ability to accept (and disagree with) dissentig opinions and beliefs without needing to Otherize them.

              i dont see how compassion or euality play a role here. I dont need to be compassionate towards Chroistianity, nor do I need toconsider it Equal, for me to be tolerant of it.

          • Shams al-Nahar 1:57 pm on June 14, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            15 and 16 year olds? come on.

            dude…
            Dr. Lynn’s work on global IQ?
            please don’t pretend you haven’t heard of that.

            • aziz 8:10 pm on June 14, 2010 Permalink

              i may have heard of it… was that the societal IQ thing? again, that was a mean IQ of an entire population. People try to sneak means past me all the time, but Im not buying it until I see some error bars.

              The variance in these analyses is staggering. And renders the conclusions weak. If you have a PDF Im willing to read the original and see if he adrressed these statistical methodology issues, but since we are talking about souped up sociology, Im not holding my breath.

              still, send me the PDF. lets see.

              bottom line, if you want to make a string assertion you need strong methods. Im not very forgiving – and Im not even a hard sciences guy, I am an applied sci guy. So Im am easy audience in comparison!

            • shams 7:48 am on June 15, 2010 Permalink

              Don’t confuse religiosity with religion. religiosity…..is um …fanaticism?
              religiosity is measured by church attendence, how influential god is in everyday life, attachment to dogma, attachment to church authority, etc
              sentiment polling for the most part.
              IQ and the Wealth of Nations
              Global IQ
              sure its controversial….why is that? Why is Murray’s Bell Curve still controversial?
              We all know the truth at this point.
              Do you agree that SES correlates with higher IQ?

            • aziz 9:22 am on June 15, 2010 Permalink

              SES?

              my training makes me pretty unimpressed with “correlations”. Even if two things correlate, that tells you essentially nothing (apart from giving you some broad predictive value). The significance of correlating IQ with religion or lack thereof is essentially zero – its irrelevant to social policy.

            • Shams al-Nahar 11:17 am on June 15, 2010 Permalink

              SES–> socio-economic status

              The significance of correlating IQ with religion or lack thereof is essentially zero

              NOT RELIGION!
              Religiosity. A measurable psychometric quantity.
              Big advances are being made right now in your domain, my habbibi.

              Neuroscience is contributing to an understanding of the biological bases of human intelligence differences. This work is principally being conducted along two empirical fronts: genetics — quantitative and molecular — and brain imaging. Quantitative genetic studies have established that there are additive genetic contributions to different aspects of cognitive ability — especially general intelligence — and how they change through the lifespan. Molecular genetic studies have yet to identify reliably reproducible contributions from individual genes. Structural and functional brain-imaging studies have identified differences in brain pathways, especially parieto-frontal pathways, that contribute to intelligence differences. There is also evidence that brain efficiency correlates positively with intelligence.

  • aziz 10:14 am on April 6, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, , , hysterics   

    GMAFB: conservative Heritage Foundation declares the US is no longer a free country. It’s just “mostly free” – is that like “mostly dead” from the Princess Bride?

     

    • thabet 12:34 am on April 9, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Everyone knows freedom only comes from life long servitude to corporations.

  • AA 12:24 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: , America, , baptists,   

    St. Cloud church buys anti-Islam ad

    “Moslems seek to influence a nation by immigration, reproduction, education, the government, illegal drugs and by supporting the gay agenda.”

    Gay agenda?

     

    • abunoor 1:54 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      wec’s

    • abunoor 1:55 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Actually there are numerous aspects of that ad that it’s hard to wrap one’s head around, but you’ve highlighted the most bizarre and inexplicable.

    • abunoor 1:59 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      At first I thought it might somehow be a reference to Rep. Keith Ellison (since the church is in Minnesota), who’s known for his outspoken political support for gay rights. But, reading the actual ad, it would seem that’s drawing connections far above the level of thinking of the author.

    • Pretty Pink Unicorns 5:50 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I find the alleged support of illegal drugs even more unlikely than the support of “the gay agenda”. I mean, sure, we drink coffee, we ain’t Mormons, but wtf man. Caffeine isn’t a scheduled drug last time I checked… and we hatin’ on the liquor.

    • benish 11:05 pm on March 25, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      This is not just the church, but the newspaper that found it correct to print such rhetoric, certainly not benefitting anyone. Fear unharnassed has an ugly face with an even uglier outcome. My dear Muslims, pray for the misguided and send them some love, that ignorance should not continue to cause widespread destruction throughout this world. Its the cross we bear to hold otheres up when they fall. Alhumdallah

      • AA 9:47 am on March 26, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Next you will say “it is not just the church, but the posters at talkIslam found it correct to print such rhetoric…”. No, it does benefit to know. It isn’t unharnessed fear, it is a call to action to interfaith with people who don’t know. Don’t just ask Muslims to pray, ask them to take concrete action to rid the ignorance. Don’t just call others misguided by sending them love, have some humility and spread knowledge.

        • Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 11:15 am on March 26, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          AA,

          I agree it’s a good reminder about our need to engage with others and get rid of ignorance (including our own ignorance of others.) Not sure if the people behind ads like these are the most valuable prospects for engagement, but I’m sure some of the ordinary people that attend those churches would be important to engage.

          If anyone does think engaging this pastor on his silliness is a good idea, I think there’s an email and even a phone number in the ad.

  • aziz 11:19 am on March 23, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, ,   

    Uri Averny has quite a remarkable column on the US-Israeli dispute. The Jonathan Pollard example he uses is quite illustrative indeed.

     

  • aziz 10:57 pm on March 21, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, , , ,   

    via @kjhealy –

    Hello America! Germany says, Welcome to 1883! The UK says, Welcome to 1911! France says, Welcome to 1930!

     

  • aziz 8:21 am on February 23, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: America, ,   

    Seems that the public really, really want health care reform.

     

  • aziz 12:06 pm on January 18, 2010 Permalink
    Tags: , , America,   

    Dean tries to provoke a discussion about the term “Black”, arguing that it’s a term that only applies to the African Americans in the US and not to Africa. It’s similar to debates we’ve had here at TI in the past, especially this one.

     

    • razib, murtad fitri 2:42 pm on January 18, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      dean should visit south africa :-) or sudan. or egypt.

      • razib, murtad fitri 2:42 pm on January 18, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        or iraq. point is, there are self-conscious black communities in many parts of the world.

        • Otto Kerner 7:55 pm on January 18, 2010 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I think it’s pretty much unavoidable that the meanings of words are almost always going to be determined by usage, and I don’t think there’s a precedent in usage to limit “Black” to black Americans (or, more broadly, black U.S. persons / Canadians). Consider, for example, the old The Onion bit, “Nigeria Elects Black President”: the joke is that everyone in Nigeria is black, and everyone knows it.

          I do agree completely that, ideally, we should have a term to distinguish the American black subculture and its members from various other “black” people. My inclination is to use “African American” that way, (i.e., affirming the statement, “Barack Obama is black, but not an African American), but it would be hard for that to catch on, since it is quite at odds with the way other “XYZ American”-type phrases are formed.

← Older posts

c
compose new post
j
next post/next comment
k
previous post/previous comment
r
reply
e
edit
o
show/hide comments
t
go to top
l
go to login
h
show/hide help
shift + esc
cancel