THIS is why there’s ZERO chance of the US becoming Jesusland: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/01/22/religious-right-leaders-say-santorum-but-voters-flock-to-gingrich.html
-
aziz
Reply
Islam News @ NYT- Lady Gaga Denied Permit to Perform in Indonesia: Protests from hard-line Muslim groups result in the cancellation of Lady Gaga's concert in Indonesia.
- Saudi Arabia Seeks Union of Monarchies in Region: The conservative monarchy wants to form a single federation with its five Persian Gulf neighbors to better resist the waves of change sweeping the Middle East.
- Bowling Alley’s 12 Lanes Lead to Another Afghanistan: The story of Strikers, the country’s only bowling alley, seems to be that rarest of things, an Afghan good news story.
-
Would you like your own blog hosted at Talk Islam? Email the admin at "salaam at talk islam dot info" !
Talk Islam uses Wordpress MU and the Prologue theme by Automattic
DISCLAIMER: Please see the About Talk Islam page for fair use issues and our privacy policy.
DONATE: Talk Islam needs your support!
shams, 
Mc Kiernan and one other person are discussing.
shams 9:56 am on January 22, 2012 Permalink |
The US is ALREADY Distributed Jesusland™
that is what the 2010 elections were about.
Didnt you read my post?
aziz 6:32 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink |
i read your post, but reading is not the same as “uncritical acceptance of your frame and theorizing”
you’re long on the theoretical and short on the empirical.
shams 7:15 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink |
orly?
did you read Manzi’s Paradox of Libertarianism that inspired my invention of Distributed Jesusland?
Heres your empirical data. Distributed Jesusland is the 2008 Jesusland map minus the majority minority cities.
Razib chose the wrong side when he chose Diana Moon over me as a front pager and GNXP (Godless and the Derb) pimped Sarah Palin…
Like Nate Silver says, demographics is destiny.
aziz 7:24 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink |
the data is sound. Your inference from teh data is where i take issue
shams 7:36 am on January 23, 2012 Permalink
Proof of my hypothesis.
The Revenge of Distributed Jesusland™
VisionPresident 9:52 pm on January 23, 2012 Permalink |
Religiously and politically, I re-discovered what America is supposed to be. It is a country founded by universalists, Masons, who believed in a Creator but also understood that their specific routes to discover the Creator are never to be imposed on others. Our founders recognized that our Creator has reserved the right to call each of us differently, so they guaranteed a freedom of religion in our constitution. In this way, each person can discover their own route to God, Allah, Yahweh, the Great Spirit, the Great I am, Our Father – whatever name you wish to call your Creator.
“Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor – over each other.” – Thomas Jefferson
America’s founders realized that a man should never to attempt to push a religious ideology on another man. Instead, religions should be encouraged to co-exist in peace so that the best of all the religions can be displayed. This religious enlightenment led to my political enlightenment, for this same philosophy can be applied to foreign policy. No country should attempt to push their ideology on another country. Instead, the nations should be encouraged to co-exist in peace so that the best of all the governments can be displayed. “Difference of opinion is advantageous in world politics. The several nations perform the office of a Censor – over each other.”
“I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.” – Thomas Jefferson
This was America’s course at the onset and is still its proper course today. We are meant to live in peace, to live in tolerance, to live in love, and to care for each other. We are not to judge, nor are we meant to create a Government that tells people how they need to worship. We must leave that to our Creator. And war, violence, death… they are not a part of our Creator’s vision for us. We are meant to be free and peaceful, and the term “religious war” makes no sense.
“The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.” – Thomas Jefferson
I believe that, politically, America must dramatically downsize its military and bring its forces back within its borders. This is what America will look like in a peaceful world. America must become completely energy self-sufficient. America must empower the United Nations and rely on the various countries to maintain the peace. America must once again become that peaceful, tolerant, free, and loving country we were meant to be, we were created to be, and let the world function in peace. The question for our day is… will the world be peaceful? Or is this naive?
“An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.” – Thomas Jefferson
Historically, outside forces prevented America from living in peace. Great powers attempted to rule us, invaded us, and World Wars were thrust upon us – not the other way around. I know America has been involved in more than its fair share of wars, but to be fair, England invaded us, Pirates attacked us, and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Hitler brought ethnic cleansing and the invasion of Europe and Russia. Saddam used chemical weapons on Iran and his people, and then invaded a peaceful Kuwait to loot their treasury. Al-Qaeda attacked us and the Taliban supported them. To call America a war-monger is not historically accurate, as America has always just wanted peace. If a peaceful and tolerant world is achievable, America will gladly draw down to realize it.
“I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.” – Thomas Jefferson
The question I’m left with for my brothers in our day, for all of mankind, is this: If America’s military was to leave every foreign country, if its military budget was to shrink to only that required to defend itself from invasion, if it resigned itself to simply being a vote in the UN, if it accepted the correct political action – would the world accept the correct religious action? Would the world accept peace and religious tolerance?
“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.” – Thomas Jefferson
Or would it use the military draw down to once again set out to impose its religious views, to destroy itself in war and violence in the name of God, Christ, Yahweh, or Allah? After America’s military retreat, will it still be termed the great Satan, the great Unbeliever, the Infidel that needed to be destroyed? Would Israel and the Jews still be considered by some as a race and religion that needed to be wiped off the face of the earth? Would America’s drawdown usher in peace or war? For there will never be peace without tolerance.
“Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.” – Thomas Jefferson
You see, I’ve discovered that religion and politics are tied hand in hand. And peace will be impossible until we, as a world, see this truth. The right answer in Faith is to discover and follow your Lord, but the right answer in Government is to reject a King’s rule – for man is not God and should never Lord over us. These two right answers are difficult to embrace together. Consider that the one who attempted to overthrow his “King” in Heaven is termed Satan and called evil. Many religious leaders today use this same logic. They label themselves as “Supreme,” “Prophet,” “Mujahidin,” and consider any dissent as sacrilegious and punishable. They use violence to enforce their vision of God, and this is not God’s vision. Many still view man-made Theocracies and government-imposed religion as the right answer.
“I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.” – Thomas Jefferson
So how can we rectify this? Can the world embrace peace, democracy, freedom, and universal religious tolerance at the same time? If so, America should withdraw and draw down immediately. But if not, if the various faiths will use our retreat as a sign to impose their Caliphate and Sharia Law, to cleanse the world of the “unbelievers” as they see it, to eliminate communities who do not share their beliefs, then what is a free people to do? Thoughts?
shams 4:43 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
if you are a universalist and a Jeffersonian as you say, then do you think that proselytizing is immoral?
shams 4:46 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
“But if not, if the various faiths will use our retreat as a sign to impose their Caliphate and Sharia Law”
shariah law is the rule of law in islamic nations.
it is the consent of the governed, or classical hellenic democracy.
You are no universalist.
Faker.
shams 4:56 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
“To call America a war-monger is not historically accurate, as America has always just wanted peace. If a peaceful and tolerant world is achievable, America will gladly draw down to realize it.”
this is an incredibly naive and unsophisticated view of American FP. Viet Nam, anyone?
plz. America’s foreign policy has been Regime Change. In MENA, either 50 years of “Searching for Ataturk” or the incredibly illformed Bush Doctrine and COIN, or Operation Ajax and the Mossadegh coup.
The only reason reigime change worked in Japan and Germany is the US invader/occupiers outlawed emperor worship and naziism.
Since it was impossible to outlaw Islam in MENA, all America’s attempts at regime change have been epic fails.
shams 5:00 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
They label themselves as “Supreme,” “Prophet,” “Mujahidin,” and consider any dissent as sacrilegious and punishable. They use violence to enforce their vision of God, and this is not God’s vision. Many still view man-made Theocracies and government-imposed religion as the right answer.
i find your ignorance of al-Islam incredibly offensive.
Great front pager choice my habbibi.
I’d rather have Bush-fellating Dean Esmay back.
shams 5:22 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
“would the world accept the correct religious action? Would the world accept peace and religious tolerance?”
LOL! the “correct religious action”?
so much bulshytt, so little time.
lol @ your xian version of “religious tolerance.”
GTFO out of the regime change business, Amerikkka.
Vision, i think you need to read this.
then praps we can talk.
visionpresident 7:27 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
My friend, I in no way meant to offend you. I am happy to read your views, hear your thoughts, and listen to your ideas. I came to this website for that purpose actually. I thought to start the conversation, the constructive dialogue, with my current belief structure. In fact, after I approached the site, I was asked to share. So I provided my thoughts on what I believe our Democracy was, is, and should be, and why I believe We, as a world, are struggling to find peace. Religious intolerance. I am no expert in Sharia Law – I don’t claim to be. I have no experience in it, I don’t claim it is an evil or good, and I admit I am ignorant to your views and faith. Is Islam tolerant of other faiths or not? Please, you tell me.
I thought “Talk Islam” might be a way to enlighten myself. From your posts, it appears you got very defensive and angry. Although I don’t understand why ignorance offends you – it should spur you to enlighten. Your site now seems to be a meeting place for like minded people to spout intolerance of te ignorant, more of the same. I was hoping for something different, something constructive. I will read the link provided, thank you for that. Perhaps it will change my vision, good things do. And I will read the Quran, I hope that will enlighten as well. Thank you for your time and may Allah bless your days.
shams 9:30 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
“Is Islam tolerant of other faiths or not? Please, you tell me.”
al-Islam is tolerant of other faiths but intolerant of proselytization.
the 1990 CDHRI (Cairo declaration of Islamic Human Rights).
but true Islam is universalist i think.
“And for every nation is a messenger. So when their Messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.” [Quran 10:47] And: “And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying]: ‘Worship Allaah and avoid Taaghoot [i.e., false deities]‘. And among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed [i.e., travel] through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.”
muslims do not believe in original sin. instead we believe mankind is forgetful. we believe all children are born innocent, pre-”saved”. That is why we say all children are born muslim.
My First Shayyk, Muhyyidin (scholar of scholars) Abu Abdullah Muhammed ibn Ali ibn Muhammed ibn Arabi:
i am a mevlevi sufi, i follow Rumi because ibn Arabi founded no school.
there are many schools that would disagree with parts of my analysis.
and i am neither a mufasir nor a trained islamic jurist, so i must rely on the teachings of the Saints and the scholarship of the Wali (friends of god) and the Companions.
also i follow Bayazid.
shams 9:42 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
you may be able to redeem your initial comments with me at least with Jeffersonian scholarship.
He is also one of my shayyks.
shams 9:49 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
“It is a country founded by universalists, Masons, who believed in a Creator but also understood that their specific routes to discover the Creator are never to be imposed on others”
yet, proselytizing, ie spreading the “good word”, is viewed as an imposition by muslims everywhere.
Do you see the flaw in your thought?
shams 10:01 am on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
dont feel special.
All ignorance offends me.
visionpresident 7:53 pm on January 24, 2012 Permalink |
My friend, my ignorance over Islam should not offend you.
“Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.” – Thomas Jefferson
I realize I am ignorant about Islam, that’s why I came here. I don’t know what a “xian version of religious tolerance is,” perhaps you can tell me. I could do without the expletives though…
“When angry count to ten before you speak. If very angry, count to one hundred.” – Thomas Jefferson
You mention proselytizing – I never heard the term until now. Although I don’t see why it is a “flaw in my thought,” as I had no such thought, I will agree whole-heartedly that my mission is never to “show you why my path to God is right.” For indeed, as a universalist, I don’t believe that mine is necessarily right for others, much less would I ever deem to enforce such a notion. This is God’s business, not mine. If you have found our Creator, than I am happy for you my brother. I have discovered Him as well, but I also realize I have yet many more things to learn.
“I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led, and bearding every authority which stood in their way.” – Thomas Jefferson
I feel like my Creator is speaking to me, and he is telling me to continue my journey. I am not claiming this as truth, nor am I asking you to believe it. But because I believe it, I would like to see what some other roads have to say – that is all. Rest assured, I am not here to proselytize you. In fact, I’m very skeptical of anyone who claims to know God and then proceeds to tell me the “right” answers. I would much prefer to seek out information, compare various thoughts, ponder and pray on them, and then determine my own opinion.
“Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” – Thomas Jefferson
I don’t know what you would expect me to “redeem” in my initial comments, so I won’t try. Nor do I intend to debate you on whether or not America is peaceful at heart. I believe we are, but you are free to believe otherwise. Some say we shouldn’t have supported the rebels in Libya, some say we were right to. Perhaps we should have let Saddam remain in Kuwait after his invasion, I don’t know. Maybe we should not have supported the Afghan rebels against the Soviets, or the Vietnamese or South Koreans for that matter. Trying to ensure food aid gets to Somalia, preventing ethnic cleansing in Serbia – heck, maybe we should have let Hitler own Europe. Maybe Al-Qaeda and the Taliban could have been handled better – I have my opinions but in the end, I don’t know. I didn’t come here to debate you on these issues, and you are welcome to your own opinions. These are difficult questions – war is always difficult. War is a terrible thing, hopefully we can agree on that.
“I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another.” – Thomas Jefferson
I came here solely to determine if Islam will help me to better know my Creator and, if so, inquire as to where I should begin to learn about it. I am open to all ideas, I am afraid of none. I don’t think any man or any religion has God all figured out, and I thought “Talk Islam” might be a good place to learn about your religion and your views on Allah.
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” – Thomas Jefferson
I opened with some of my political leanings because I was asked to. I am now hoping to try a different tack if that’s ok with you. I don’t mean to offend you so I’ll keep my personal thoughts to myself unless and until you ask for them again. I did read the article “America’s god is dying” that you directed me to. I didn’t think America had subscribed to a particular belief on God… perhaps that is his point.
“He who knows best knows how little he knows.” – Thomas Jefferson
In any case, here are my questions for you, feel free to take them wherever you deem they should be taken:
1) Does Islam preach that it is the only religion that has correctly figured out who and what Allah is? If so, is it fair to say that in your opinion the only ones who “really” know our Creator are Muslims?
2) Do you believe that you will be with the Creator one day? If so, do you believe that the only other people who will be with Him are Muslims?
3) Do you believe that there are certain men in political leadership positions here on earth that speak directly for Allah? Meaning, like the Pope of the Catholic church, do you believe that men speak things that are unquestionable by other men?
4) What constitues an “infidel” in you view? And, do you believe infidels should be punished or destroyed?
5) Do you believe that it is the role of government police forces to not only provide security, but to enforce religious adherence and tradition?
6) Do you believe that America is the Great Satan, the Great Unbeliever, the Infidel that needs to be destroyed? And if so, would you still believe this even if America were to completely withdraw all military forces from the world to within its borders?
7) Do you believe the Jews in Israel constitute a religion and a nation that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth?
Do you believe that all “true” Muslims believe the same things, or is it tolerated for different people to believe different things within the faith?
Your honest answers to these questions will help me in my studies.
“I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” – Thomas Jefferson
And whatever your answers, please know in advance that I thank you for taking the time to answer them.
“I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.” – Thomas Jefferson
Yours in Faith for a better America and a better World.
visionpresident 2:13 pm on January 25, 2012 Permalink |
Lastly, and probably most importantly, what would you recommend I do next if I wanted to continue my search to discover our Creator?
I am considering looking into the Gnostic Bible and writings – thoughts from Islam about that? Thanks for your insight.
shams 10:19 am on January 26, 2012 Permalink |
i would say read the Noble Quran(i prefer Muhammed Asad’s translation), read the great islamic scholars like Ghazali and Ibn Arabi. Read the Vedas, read the gnostic bible.
Read the sapentia poetica of the Sufi Saints.
You have a cartoonish version of al-Islam in your head, like most westerners.
i was raised orthodox catholic, became an atheist in high school, and reverted to Islam while studying arabic.
there are others here that are well qualified to correct your ignorance…..if they will.
visionpresident 11:30 am on January 26, 2012 Permalink |
Many thanks my friend, I will follow your lead. I especially like what your teacher once shared with you:
“Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you—indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another.”
I’m disappointed that such Truth eluded me for so long, but I’m joyful today that the journey continues. I’m thankful that my version of al-Islam is cartoonish – this is re-assuring to me. Not surprisingly, the uneducated and ignorant version of the Truth is not true at all. I look forward to replacing the western cartoon with educated knowledge, and have cut and pasted your post of suggested readings for future reference – I will read the works you mention.
I was raised catholic, became a wandering Protestant, then claimed myself a non-denominational Christian. Now I’ve reverted to my “Seek and ye shall find” religion and it will be my religion until the day I pass from this world.
Perhaps my journey will cause me to one day call myself a Muslim, I don’t know. Or maybe I’ll go back full circle to the beginning and realize I’m Jewish – I have yet to delve much into their belief structure either. For now though, I just call myself a God-lover, a fellow mankind lover, and a seeker…. and I like my “religion.” I’ll seek it all out, and let the Holy Spirit separate the wheat from the chaff.
You have given me readings to continue my journey, thank you my friend. This is what I needed. Thanks again for your direction and for your patience with my ignorance. If there are others there well qualified to correct my ignorance but unwilling to do so, then I do not seek their wisdom. “Knock, and the door will be opened to you.” Either they do not have the knowledge I seek, or I do not yet have the ability to comprehend their wisdom. Either way, if the door doesn’t open when I knock upon it, I should leave.
But I knocked here at “Talk Islam,” and I thank you for opening your door.
May Allah’s light be upon you and bless you in your days.
Yours in Faith.
shams 8:27 am on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
your questions reek of islamophobia. they are rude and offensive.
many here are far better qualified to answer your questions than i.
it is curious indeed that they do not.
it is admirable that you wish to become a wali, a friend of god. but you are going about it the wrong way.
some sapentia poetica from TS.
shams 8:59 am on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
and this…from the Muhyyidin.
visionpresident 12:23 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
Thank you again for your comments and direction – the Lord reveals their truth to me. I am thankful that my questions were offensive to you, it demonstrates I’ve found the right place. And I apologize for my offense – I will no longer ask these questions, I assure you. I know why the others there will not answer them. Proverbs 26:4
“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest though also be like unto him.”
But you have done better. You embodied Proverbs 26:5, and answered the fool enough to reveal his foolishness. And not just to the enlightened around you, for they already are aware and to do this helps no one, but you strove to reveal the foolishness to the fool himself. I salute your wisdom, I applaud your answers, and I thank you for your guidance.
I may be an ignorant fool, but I know that – and I no longer wish to remain so. I am not searching for a religion, for I have found mine. I am searching only for our God of love, and He is inside of me. He always has been. Like a sculpturer, I must remove myself from Him so that He can be revealed. He is with me as I write this, He writes this very word. I must sacrifice my worldly self and embrace my heavenly one.
So now, to the task at hand. I will read the writings you provided and many others from those who have been able to accomplish this before me. I have so much to discover, so much to do. They are our guides in this world and a fool is wise to follow them. I love your quotes, thank you. I am so looking forward to reading the enlightened and to bettering myself by removing me from it. Perhaps one day I too, as you have done, can help to enlighten others.
“I follow the Caravan of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take, that is my religion and my faith.”
Amen.
visionpresident 1:18 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
But my friend, as I work on improving me, as a man, I discover that our duty is to improve us, as a Body. Allah and I will continue to work on me. My question is about us:
Would us, as a Body, be better off if the United States was more or less involved militarily in the world? What US military posture and strategy do you believe is right for our present day?
visionpresident 1:22 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
I ask not because I believe I have the answer, but because I seek it.
visionpresident 3:04 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
Or would I be wiser not to be concerned about such things?
Mc Kiernan 5:48 pm on January 27, 2012 Permalink |
Defense against prosletyzation:
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2012/01/christian-persecution-top-50-countries.html
shams 4:49 am on January 28, 2012 Permalink |
While the oppressive, atheist-communist regime of North Korea is (again) the worst persecutor of Christians in the world, it must be observed that the rest of the Top 10 are Islamic. In fact, 38 of worst 50 countries persecuting Christians are predominantly Muslim.
i’ll answer His Grace. The Miraculous Quran forbids proselytization of the poor and ignorant. Christianity exploits proselytization of the poor and ignorant.
The Noble Quran mandates a proportionate response to the Proselytizers, and invasion and occupation, or regime change via coups and propping tyrants in a doomed search for another Ataturk gets a a pretty radical proportionate response.
VisionPresident 12:03 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink |
So is “invasion and occupation, regime change via coups, propping tyrants” something that the poor and ignorant feel Christians are doing – justifying a radical proportionate response against all Christians? Or do they believe it to be a US phenomena? A Western phenomena? And most importantly, what needs to happen to get it all to stop?
What needs to take place so that the poor and ignorant do not feel exploited by Christian proselytizers? Or by the US, or the West, or whomever they feel is exploiting them?
If US troops occupied no other country but the US, stopped giving any money or aid to any foreign governments, and relegated itself to whatever the UN decided as far as world political affairs, would that help or hurt religious persecution numbers? Would that help to bring about religious tolerance and peace in the world?
VisionPresident 4:04 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink |
And of course its not just the poor and ignorant who feel that Christians (or US, or Western World) are proselytizing? I’m poor and ignorant and can see that view but smart and wealthy feel this way too. What would Christians (or US, or West) need to do to put out a sincere and well received olive branch to usher in peace?
shams 8:40 am on January 29, 2012 Permalink |
stop pushing.
wait for defense against proselytization to go out of mutawatir.
stop meddling.
we have no right.
visionpresident 3:19 pm on January 29, 2012 Permalink |
Yes my friend, I understand. Thank you again for your teaching. I can continue in peace to work on me, and pray in the Lord that we will continue to work on us. Much thanks for all of your insight, patience, and direction.
Yours in Faith for a better World.