Instead of debates, let’s take a quick …
Instead of debates, let’s take a quick poll. Agree, disagree?
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As many Muslims yesterday celebrated the birthday of Prophet Muhammad, a Qatari scholar criticised the celebrations as an “un-Islamic habit”, which he said, was initiated by “heretic Muslims”.
In his Friday sermon, Sheikh Mohamed Hassan al-Mreikhi criticised clerics who permitted such celebration, saying that their justifications for celebrating the day were “baseless” and hence, it was bida’a (an innovation in the religion).
“From a historical viewpoint, there was no evidence that the Prophet was born on that specific day of the year. And if there was any good in marking the Prophet’s birthday, it was the companions of the Prophet who should have been the first people to do that, but there is no proof that they did,” Sheikh al-Mreikhi told a congregation at the Omar bin al-Khattab mosque at Khalifa Town.
Sheikh al-Mreikhi slammed Muslim countries that observe the Prophet’s birthday as a public holiday. “Some countries used to celebrate the occasion by stopping their business, let alone that several sins are being committed by some Muslims during such celebration,” he added.
The scholar denied that there could be “good innovation” and “bad innovation” in Islam, saying that any addition to the religion should be rejected. “All the justifications given by those who support such celebration are baseless including the one that marking the day would be an opportunity for Muslims to remember their Prophet,” he added.
He blamed the origination of the practice on the Fatimide state, whose rulers were “heretic Muslims and originally Jews”.
-Source.
AA, 
aziz, 
Pretty Pink Unicorns 4:46 pm on February 26, 2010 Permalink |
I disagree that the Fatimid state’s rulers were heretics who converted from Judaism. And I think that scholar should pay more attention to the poor and disenfranchised, such as those in his own damn country. OMG THERE’S ALL THIS BID’AH – yeah, like the fact that women can’t vote in the UAE or drive in Saudi.
And disagree. Mawlid an-Nabi is a fine holiday and who cares what some wanker of a scholar with a rod up his awrah has to say about it?
AA 5:25 pm on February 26, 2010 Permalink |
I say lot’s of people do or at least they have started to care lately, which is a travesty. The Fatimid accusation is nothing new and is an easy excuse.
plimfix 12:46 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
The main Salafi FB group issued a “bida’a alert” to its members, calling them to target another FB group celebrating Mawlid an-Nabi. *sigh*
Dan 9:59 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Isn’t Facebook bida’a according to these dogmatic retards?
Pretty Pink Unicorns 10:39 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
PLEASE do not use the slur “retard”. It’s like calling someone “faggot”, and there is no reason either term should ever be used disparagingly.
And yes, I’d imagine Facebook should be bid3ah to those dogmatic failbots.
Dan 11:51 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
God can you stop being so touchy and politically correct for once?
midwinterspring 1:04 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink
Throwing around the term “politically correct” is the last refuge of someone who has no justification for their behavior or use of language. There are plenty of other internet forums for you to flout your callous insensitivity in the company of kindred jerks. There is no need to drag your baggage in here and offend others.
Pretty Pink Unicorns 7:55 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink
Dan, can you stop being an insensitive, arrogant jackass?
plimfix 1:31 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Far more piercing, creative and witty to to refer to someone as a “failbot”, especially in the context of Salafi netivism. And speaking as a parent of an ASD/SLD teen, I wouldn’t describe avoiding the term “retard” as PC. I’d describe it as essential. Debate ended.
Dan 9:52 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Fair enough, I will refrain from using insensitive remarks next time. I apologize to anyone that I have offended on here. I will use proper judgment from this point on.
thabet 9:56 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Marginal voices like this can fulminate all they want. Eid Milad is widely celebrated by Muslims of whatever variety.
aziz 8:37 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
there’s a certain lack of humanity in these arguments. The argument here isnt even “this theological interpretation is wrong” – it’s “this celebration of honest human love is not pre-approved”. If this doesnt run counter to the human spirit, of the basic emotions which underlie faith itself, then maybe I dont understand people the way I do. But I just dont believe we are all humorless automatons running the Deen script.
If we were, then the jafis would be right about us.
Crabby 11:12 am on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Umm if it is true there is no evidence for the Prophet’s exact birth date, I would agree with the scholar that it’s silly to celebrate his “birthday” then. How did the ummah come up with the date?
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 5:09 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
If you’re interested in the history of celebrating the Prophet’s birthday, here is a beneficial series by Shaykh Yasir Qadhi.
Crabby 6:56 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Oooh thank you. I like the first part, very interesting how through some circumstances, a certain opinion becomes popular rather than the stronger one. Nice work of scholarship there.
bingregory 9:09 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Who says not to do it on any other time of the year? Anytime is the right time to gather together, praise the Prophet, remember his holy Sirah and feed your neighbors. Just like with the attack on reading Ya Sin on thursday nights though, a perfectly good practice is problematized with nothing offered to replace it.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 9:01 am on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
I have to disagree bin gregory. I have spent a lot of time with Muslims who disagree with celebrating the mawlid and all of them routinely remember and praise the Prophet (saw). It is truly an everyday thing.
There are books filled with sunnah activities that people are encouraged to do. It is just plainly wrong to say that “nothing is offered” to “replace it.”
It is always good to hear from you and I pray you and your family are well.
bingregory 9:05 pm on February 27, 2010 Permalink |
Quick poll? Disagree. Just spent last night at a wonderful mawlid gathering that began with a reading from the works of Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani who settled the question 1000 years ago. One loses interest in contemporary polemics from this or that PhD after that. Next you’re going to tell me muslims have been practicing blameworthy innovation with their index finger in tashahud for the last 1000 years too. Oh wait.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 9:05 am on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
It is obvious that Ibn Hajar (rahimuAllaah) did not settle the issue.
Again with this argument that if Muslims have done something for a while it must be okay. Really this argument doesn’t make sense. If it convinces you, though, that’s fine I truly don’t want to argue about it. But certainly there are many many undoubtedly haram actions (things all scholars would agree are not permissible) that have been widespread in the ummah for hundreds and hundreds of years so it just is not true that something must be okay if its been occurring for a while.
Allaah knows best.
AA 10:55 am on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
So what’s wrong with “celebrating” the birth of the Prophet of Islam? The argument which I have discerned to be very common is that since birthday celebration is a thing of the kufaar, so it is haram. The intent is obviously lost behind this logic. The Prophet becomes someone who is dreaded because people might eventually worship him if they celebrate him, so censor whatever that leads to haram things.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 11:42 am on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Who is the prophet (sallAllaahu alayhe wa salaam) dreaded by? I really don’t want to get into the substance of the arguments on either side, because they are readily available in other places but this is a complete and utter strawman.
AA 1:53 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Abu Noor, the spirituality of the Prophet is dreaded. The Prophet becomes a very common person like you and me, he shouldn’t even get any visible veneration.
This is something very commonly found in Saudi Arabia but not necessarily in Pakistan. This is just to compare the notion of unification. The Sunnism is not monolithic either!
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 2:33 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Not sure what you mean by “spirituality of the Prophet” here. It is actually the spirituality of the Prophet (meaning that practiced and exemplified by the Prophet) that we seek to emulate. The Prophet (saw) and those who loved him and knew him best never celebrated his birthday.
Allah knows best.
AA, I think this discussion could be productive in person (although perhaps not) but I don’t think it will be productive in a comment thread.
aziz 12:35 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
He blamed the origination of the practice on the Fatimide state, whose rulers were “heretic Muslims and originally Jews”.
Odious slander of the most sterotypical kind. I am absolutely disgusted.
midwinterspring 12:56 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
I’d be curious to know which of the historical Muslim states weren’t ruled by “heretic Muslims” in his book.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 1:48 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
I agree that the description as reported in the link is not helpful and I especially agree that descriptions of theological opponents as “originally Jews” is a bad habit that some Muslims on all sides of theological disputes seem to latch onto.
I do think it is legitimate to point out to Sunni audiences that the public celebration of the “holiday” was originated by an Ismaili Shi’i regime.
I’m actually curious: do the frequent posters here not believe there is a such thing as “heresy”? Certainly people may differ on what is orthodox, but if one is actually a believer who does have a theology (which will not be discussed here at TalkIslam) certainly some beliefs will be heretical. From the academic perspective, it may all just be different “Islams” but from the believers viewpoint there must be some things which are heretical, although there will be differences as to what constitutes orthodoxy and how big of a tent will still be included in that.
Pretty Pink Unicorns 2:34 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Also ironic is that the early Fatimid movement was comprised of immigrant Ismaili Da3is – part of the established Ismaili lineage from Fatima and Ali – and local ex-Zaydi and ex-Ibadi converts. They took over indigenous Berber movements against the Egyptian dynasty.
Far from being Jews, they were Muslims who adopted the Ismaili creed! Unless they mean the Ismaili leadership, who were descended from the Prophet through his daughter and through Ali…
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 2:44 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
I don’t think there’s any way to solve this debate, and personally am unsure if it is that important, but you must know that whether the Fatimid leadership was actually descended from Fatima (ra) has always been a matter of dispute.
AA 6:19 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink
but you must know that whether the Fatimid leadership was
This is a pretty general and unqualified remark. Matter of dispute with whom and how? With far out history in the past, everything in general becomes matter of dispute. Let’s not please go there with such generalities.
My original intent was to take the quick poll of yes or no on celebrating the birth of Prophet of Islam. Obviously there is always a limitation on the internet for debates (sometime when it is convenient).
So, would you care to vote yes or no? I am done with this thread from my end and don’t wish to add tons of other things, the legitimacy of Fatimid dynasty notwithstanding.
aziz 8:26 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink
How unbelievably and uncharacteristically rude, of you, Abu Noor.
I find I have nothing left to say. An instructive thread, indeed.
abunoor 8:33 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink
Aziz, I’m truly lost. It is rude to say that the legitimacy of the claim of Ubaydullah to descent from the Prophet (saw) is “disputed.” That is a statement of fact….or are you referring to another comment of mine?
aziz 8:37 am on March 1, 2010 Permalink
i wont discuss this further in public. to make you understand I would need to use analogies which would be just as hurtful.
midwinterspring 2:37 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I do think there is such a thing as orthodoxy and heresy. However, I think these categories have acquired a certain rigidity that is most likely incapable of making sense of the history of Islamic societies. I generally agree with the contention you tend to make in this forum, that the simple fact that some Muslims did something at some point in history doesn’t make it correct or permissible. However, if the categories of orthodoxy or orthopraxy are as hard and fast as they are understood by groups that tend to make a major issue out of things like the mawlid, I really wonder where this leaves the Ummah as a historical phenomenon. Whether it be music, Sufism, mawlid, pictures, etc. a significant portion of the Ummah following the death of the Prophet — salallahu alayhi wasalaam — always seems to be wrong according to someone. I’m not saying that, consequently, we should just give up and affirm that everyone is right. But I do think we may benefit from understanding orthodoxy as a historical process rather than a rigid category.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 4:30 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Thanks for your reply, see my reply below to Conrad in which I also address some of the points you make.
cbarwa 3:27 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Well not a” believer who has theology” but am a frequent poster so don’t know if that makes my opinion relevant to the issue at hand but here goes!
I have some sympathy with the other view on this than you, simply because I remain sceptical as to the nature of revealed texts and religions; these all rest to a degree on interpretation and one of the major problems is that no single interpretation will be shared by *everyone*. Even in a religion that places such an emphasis on orthopraxy, this will raise a certain amount of problems. I do agree of course that as stated by others just because something was done in the past, it doesn’t necessarily confer legitimacy on the action. On the other hand though, one should perhaps draw a distinction between what one’s understanding of a specific religion is and what the actual empirical reality is for many of those who profess to be its followers. To take one common example, Islam is one of the few religions which clearly codifies and gives a large degree of property rights to women in a number of different spheres; however one only needs to look at the actual position of womens’ property rights in regions like South Asia (only taken because this is the region I am most familiar with) to see that cultural traditions dominate what actually happens but that these are also seen as Islamic or not at least not contradicting popular understandings of Islam. For many people, whatever the textual or legal Islamic ‘correct’ position is *this is* how they understand themselves to participate in their social lives and what their religion mandates. It won’t be changed by rational appeals to texts or treatises. In this case one needs to distinguish what is an empirical reality from what one might understand to the ‘authentic’ interpretation of religion.
Actually in reality this already is the case, because obviously across a number of points there is a fair amount of variation in practise regarding Islam – much of which by staunch believers who have faith in their understanding of religion. Without getting into questions of whether that is right or wrong, it is from their point of view legitimate.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 4:29 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
Thanks Conrad for replying and your reply points toward two of the major reasons why I repeatedly make the point that I make in this thread. First, I actually do believe that Islam’s texts (Qur’an and the authentic ahadith) are revelation but more interestingly to this conversation is this point you make:
It is precisely because I believe that appeal to texts and arguments based on those texts can be an effective argument and source of change. One already sees this happen and I believe it is especially powerful as societies become more urbanized and modernized and lay people become more literate and educated and exposed to a wide diversity of practice. It is precisely in such environments that arguments based exclusively on tradition or this is the way our fathers and grandfathers did things become much easier to challenge. So, for people who wish to hold on to their beliefs and identity, it is precisely argument based on texts and the search for the “authentic” understanding of the religion is powerful and important.
And this is why I am in no way a “conservative” and also why this style of willingness to argue based on the original sources and not to give overwhelming power to what people have done is so attractive not just to “Salafis” but to feminists and authentically religious people of various stripes who want to bring positive change to their communities.
So if women are not receiving their rights in South Asian cultures where people proudly claim to be Muslim, yes of course we should be trying to educate people that perhaps their understanding of the religion as defined by their culture is incorrect. I don’t suggest this will necessarily bring change overnight, but at least it can act as a counter to the worry that one would not be faithful to the religion. What are the alternatives? Accept things the way they are and say well, you can’t change people’s culture (which is obviously false) or wait until other forces bring about change in a way that will threaten people’s faith, because you have allowed the religion to falsely become identified with things it does not stand for.
As to your last point that there is a variety of practices and understanding and many of these are by people who are “staunch believers” who believe their understanding is correct, I will not disagree with that nor do I think that if all people are sincere and exposed to knowledge they will necessarily all agree on every issue. But the only hope for meaningful conversation on these issues is to set up a methodology for what arguments are legitimate and what are not (which is how I understand orthodoxy anyways — orthodoxy is not a set of answers that everyone must agree upon but a shared understanding of what are acceptable sources and techniques of argument).
All of the above goes to show why I find “a lot of people do this” or Muslims have done this for a long time” or if you don’t accept this you’re saying a lot of muslims are wrong” as being an almost uniquely bad form of argument to make, and if I accomplish nothing else on earth, I hope to end the resort to this type of argument (by conservatives or liberals, sufis or salafis) — if only on this website.
Allaah knows best.
bingregory 10:58 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
My argument is not that it has been done by the awam for a long time – it is that it has been discussed at length and ruled upon by the mujatahid imams of our madhab for a long time. I’m reminded of the creationists who want to “teach the controversy” between evolution and creationism. There is no controversy within the shafi’i madhab on this point, amongst scholars representing and leading 250 million believers in my corner of the world, and a madhab is nothing if not a shared understanding of what are acceptable sources and techniques of argument. I find your points on social justice and positive change above excellent and on point. Yet where is the pressing social need to problematize the following religious observances:
Feeding your neighbors –
Praising the Prophet –
Teaching the holy Sirah –
What exactly is the problem, that we do it on the 12th? In Malaysia, we also do it at weddings, births, farewell dinners, and sometimes just for the heck of it. Is feeding your neighbors, praising the Prophet and teaching the holy Sirah ok on every day except 12th Rabiul Awal? It’s like there is this hangup about the word “mawlid” – maybe if we call gathering to feed your neighbors, praising the Prophet and teaching the holy Sirah “UngaBunga” instead? Because calling people up and saying “hey come over tomorrow night, I’m going to feed you, praise the prophet and read from the holy Sirah” is just a bit cumbersome.
abunoor 11:36 pm on February 28, 2010 Permalink |
From the widely circulated statement of Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah on this issue:
Obviously whether this corresponds completely to my opinion or not is irrelevant the scheme of things. But I think it is a most fitting opinion of a traditional scholar to cap off such a discussion, especially with regard to you bingregory.
bingregory 12:52 am on March 1, 2010 Permalink |
Yes, that’ll do nicely, but my God man it’s like playing whack-a-mole. It’s fine if you do and fine if you don’t is a far cry from every bid’a is in the nar. And the thing is, the general public, the sort who are likely to get their sole religious input of the week at their friday khutbah, who get scared off from attending a mawlid event by a hellfire sermon, are they going to spend the day off memorizing Quran instead? Or watching SportsCenter? And is the barakah from feeding your neighbor, praising the Prophet and reciting his Sirah equivalent to the reward from avoiding innovation by staying home and ironing your socks? Allah knows best.
AA 9:24 am on March 1, 2010 Permalink |
Relevant Dawn.com editorial
Milad processions also attacked in Faisalabad, Sargodha Seven killed in DI Khan violence
arif 10:29 am on March 1, 2010 Permalink |
Just to keep the balance.
Eid Miladun Nabi celebrated in City