<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Should muslim Americans serve in the arm&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/</link>
	<description>a crescent waxing eloquent</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:18:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18344</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 03:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18344</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There has to be a reason for the difference in [terms used in] Revelation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There has to be a reason for the difference in [terms used in] Revelation.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Buzz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18343</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 03:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18343</guid>
		<description>Our Pir always stesses the difference between Mu&#039;amin (Believer) and Muslim in the Qur&#039;an.  There has to be a reason for the difference in Revelation. There are many ayah which define who are Believers. Those who see the unseen, etc.

But for purposes here. 2:213 should suffice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our Pir always stesses the difference between Mu&#8217;amin (Believer) and Muslim in the Qur&#8217;an.  There has to be a reason for the difference in Revelation. There are many ayah which define who are Believers. Those who see the unseen, etc.</p>
<p>But for purposes here. 2:213 should suffice.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abunoor</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18325</link>
		<dc:creator>abunoor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18325</guid>
		<description>Hussein, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/macharter.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Constitution of Medina&quot;&lt;/a&gt; actually is very interesting to read in the context of this discussion.  I don&#039;t think it actually does label Jews or Christians as &quot;believers&quot; but I could see why you could argue that.  It does however explicitly state the following:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A Believer will not kill another Believer, for the sake of an un-Believer. (i.e. even though the un-Believer is his close relative).
 

No Believer will help an un-Believer against a Believer.
 

Protection (when given) in the Name of Allah will be common. The weakest among Believers may give protection (In the Name of Allah) and it will be binding on all Believers.
 

Believers are all friends to each other to the exclusion of all others.
 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hussein, the <a href="http://www.constitution.org/cons/medina/macharter.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Constitution of Medina&#8221;</a> actually is very interesting to read in the context of this discussion.  I don&#8217;t think it actually does label Jews or Christians as &#8220;believers&#8221; but I could see why you could argue that.  It does however explicitly state the following:</p>
<blockquote><p>A Believer will not kill another Believer, for the sake of an un-Believer. (i.e. even though the un-Believer is his close relative).</p>
<p>No Believer will help an un-Believer against a Believer.</p>
<p>Protection (when given) in the Name of Allah will be common. The weakest among Believers may give protection (In the Name of Allah) and it will be binding on all Believers.</p>
<p>Believers are all friends to each other to the exclusion of all others.</p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abunoor</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18324</link>
		<dc:creator>abunoor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18324</guid>
		<description>Aziz (and Hussein) :  My points at this time are very limited.  First, it should be uncontroversial that a general principle of Islam is that Muslims should not fight against other Muslims.  Second, perhaps more controversial in our time, but spelled out clearly in the Qur&#039;an there is a general principle that one should not ally politically and militarily with non-Muslims against their Muslim brothers and sisters.  

These are general principles....like almost any general principles there are exceptions to these rules in practice.  Whether a particular situation constitutes an exception will not appear equally obvious to everyone depending upon various factors.  (See Yvonne Haddad &quot;Operation Desert Storm and the War of the Fatwas&quot; in &quot;Islamic Legal Interpretation: Muftis and their Fatwas&quot;)  

It is easy for me to scoff at the fatwas of pro-government muftis who justify the alliances of Muslim governments with non-Muslims although these often appear self serving and have profoundly negative effects noticed by all.  It is easy for others to scoff at the fatwas of those who sympathize with Islamists or Rebels and who would consider such governments to have apostated.  I am not sure how this mutual scoffing helps a great deal.

Indeed one interesting reality we can point to is that actually reaching a fatwa demands not only a deep knowledge of the Islamic source texts and an understanding of the process of fiqh but to reach a fatwa in such contemporary issues demands a deep understanding of the current reality and sometimes the fatwas may differ based on different understandings of the current political reality. 

Allaah knows best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aziz (and Hussein) :  My points at this time are very limited.  First, it should be uncontroversial that a general principle of Islam is that Muslims should not fight against other Muslims.  Second, perhaps more controversial in our time, but spelled out clearly in the Qur&#8217;an there is a general principle that one should not ally politically and militarily with non-Muslims against their Muslim brothers and sisters.  </p>
<p>These are general principles&#8230;.like almost any general principles there are exceptions to these rules in practice.  Whether a particular situation constitutes an exception will not appear equally obvious to everyone depending upon various factors.  (See Yvonne Haddad &#8220;Operation Desert Storm and the War of the Fatwas&#8221; in &#8220;Islamic Legal Interpretation: Muftis and their Fatwas&#8221;)  </p>
<p>It is easy for me to scoff at the fatwas of pro-government muftis who justify the alliances of Muslim governments with non-Muslims although these often appear self serving and have profoundly negative effects noticed by all.  It is easy for others to scoff at the fatwas of those who sympathize with Islamists or Rebels and who would consider such governments to have apostated.  I am not sure how this mutual scoffing helps a great deal.</p>
<p>Indeed one interesting reality we can point to is that actually reaching a fatwa demands not only a deep knowledge of the Islamic source texts and an understanding of the process of fiqh but to reach a fatwa in such contemporary issues demands a deep understanding of the current reality and sometimes the fatwas may differ based on different understandings of the current political reality. </p>
<p>Allaah knows best.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: aziz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18323</link>
		<dc:creator>aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18323</guid>
		<description>ok i see the gist of these verses as minimizing relationships with non-muslims and preferring muslim  ties to non-muslim ones. But spell out for me why this is equivalent to saying muslim cannot serve. 

IBTW, Ive posted on this at COB. 

http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2009/11/onwards-muslim-soldiers.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok i see the gist of these verses as minimizing relationships with non-muslims and preferring muslim  ties to non-muslim ones. But spell out for me why this is equivalent to saying muslim cannot serve. </p>
<p>IBTW, Ive posted on this at COB. </p>
<p><a href="http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2009/11/onwards-muslim-soldiers.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2009/11/onwards-muslim-soldiers.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: aziz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18322</link>
		<dc:creator>aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18322</guid>
		<description>Hussein has a &lt;a href=&quot;http://talkislam.info/2009/11/11/my-thoughts-on-ft-hood/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;relevant post up-blog&lt;/a&gt; - am copying and pasting here for reference:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One concrete action we can take is to reach out to Hasan’s student, Duane Reasoner, who believes ““In the Koran, you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”” He is clearly misguided in his understanding of the Qur’an. The first part he is referring to is verse 5:52, which refers to Christians and Jews who broke a treaty with Muhammad in Medina. The second is verse 4:92, which states a believer shall not kill a believer. According to the Constitution of Medina, a believer can include Jews and Christians. However, even if one accepts Reasoner’s understanding that the verse only refers to Muslims, he still has a problem. The greatest killer of Muslims in the 21st century has been the Taliban and Al-Qa’ida. The Sunni-Shi’ah conflict in Iraq is another violation of the Qur’an. Reasoner must either put himself in the position of deciding who is Muslim, or accept that as problematic as US intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan has been, it has probably also saved a large number of Muslim lives. Reasoner needs help, and he needs it now.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hussein has a <a href="http://talkislam.info/2009/11/11/my-thoughts-on-ft-hood/" rel="nofollow">relevant post up-blog</a> &#8211; am copying and pasting here for reference:</p>
<blockquote><p>One concrete action we can take is to reach out to Hasan’s student, Duane Reasoner, who believes ““In the Koran, you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”” He is clearly misguided in his understanding of the Qur’an. The first part he is referring to is verse 5:52, which refers to Christians and Jews who broke a treaty with Muhammad in Medina. The second is verse 4:92, which states a believer shall not kill a believer. According to the Constitution of Medina, a believer can include Jews and Christians. However, even if one accepts Reasoner’s understanding that the verse only refers to Muslims, he still has a problem. The greatest killer of Muslims in the 21st century has been the Taliban and Al-Qa’ida. The Sunni-Shi’ah conflict in Iraq is another violation of the Qur’an. Reasoner must either put himself in the position of deciding who is Muslim, or accept that as problematic as US intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan has been, it has probably also saved a large number of Muslim lives. Reasoner needs help, and he needs it now.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abunoor</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18300</link>
		<dc:creator>abunoor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18300</guid>
		<description>Aziz, I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m following you here.  But I don&#039;t claim to know what options were available to individual soldiers in Iraq or Iran at that time.  

The original point of this discussion, however, was that here in the United States, American Muslims are not obligated to enter the military and therefore can avoid having to face such a situation, and so it seems to me, they should.  

Of course, that does not absolve us completely of responsibility for what the military does, if we are able to stop it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aziz, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m following you here.  But I don&#8217;t claim to know what options were available to individual soldiers in Iraq or Iran at that time.  </p>
<p>The original point of this discussion, however, was that here in the United States, American Muslims are not obligated to enter the military and therefore can avoid having to face such a situation, and so it seems to me, they should.  </p>
<p>Of course, that does not absolve us completely of responsibility for what the military does, if we are able to stop it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: null</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18298</link>
		<dc:creator>null</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18298</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-School-Bullies&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What else? &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-School-Bullies" rel="nofollow">What else? </a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: aziz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18297</link>
		<dc:creator>aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18297</guid>
		<description>yes they &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; not. so the members of Iraq and Iran&#039;s militaries &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; have.. done what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes they <em>should</em> not. so the members of Iraq and Iran&#8217;s militaries <em>should</em> have.. done what?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: aziz</title>
		<link>http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18296</link>
		<dc:creator>aziz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://talkislam.info/2009/11/10/should-muslim-americans-serve-in-the-arm/#comment-18296</guid>
		<description>i look forward to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i look forward to it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
