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shams 7:54 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink |
And the WECs weigh in.
Please, Johnpi, in your infinite wisdom…what other word is there to describe these people other than….well….stupid?
johnpi 8:05 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink |
WEC = White evangelical Christians.
“These people” = All white evangelical Christians?
Shams al-Nahar 8:11 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink |
Yup. white evangelical christians and their apologists.
aziz 8:16 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink |
so, why is it okay to generalize about one group of religious people based on teh asshattery of their extreme fringe, but not another?
one of the most powerful criiques we have of the jafis is that they adopt the same arguments as the extremist jihadis (ie, Spencer and bin Laden make identical arguments about Islam). We must not fall into the same trap ourselves.
Shams al-Nahar 8:21 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink
Because WECs all believe it is their right….nay duty!
to meddle and proselytize.
Even the “good” WECs.
Being WEC means never having to say you’re sorry…..or that you were wrong.
johnpi 8:25 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink
I’ve worked with some evangelical Christianss, and was never once proselytized. Aren’t you being unfair and prejudiced?
Shams al-Nahar 8:37 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink
No.
Ask your co-workers Johnpi if they believe in spreading the “good word”.
Ask them if they believe xians should get to proselytize in MENA.
johnpi 8:45 pm on November 8, 2009 Permalink
I’m sure if you ask a few questions of someone of any group you will be able to find some answers that confirm your prejudice/validate your malice.
shams 1:37 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
What is wrong with you Johnpi?
WECs believe that it is their RIGHT and their DUTY to proselytize and meddle.
THEY ALL BELIEVE THAT.
THAT IS WHAT EVANGELICAL MEANS….TO EVANGELIZE.
This is not a problem as long as the evangelizers have no power, like your co-workers.
It becomes a BIG PROBLEM when they have power like Bush.
null 2:02 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Aziz, I understand you employ a hands off approach to moderating these boards and I generally appreciate that. But what happens when comments like the above – repeated ad nauseam – take over the boards?
These are basically equivalent to the libelous “zomg taqiyya!” claims that the jafi-sphere throws at us, so it makes it difficult to argue against this kind of bigotry in good faith on these boards, when comments like the above are allowed to stand here.
It’s getting past the point of absurd.
shams 6:53 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Stating the truth is not bigotry, null.
A great deal…..even most of the worlds ills are due to white christian proselytizing, missionariism, colonialism and general meddling. I bitterly resent you and others want to give WECs a pass because they are doin’ it out of “love”.
They have no right.
The Crusades, Operation Ajax, spanish and portugese missionariism, the British Raj, Kashmir, French Indochine, the post-WWII partion of MENA, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, triple digit population growth in Africa…..all I want is for people to acknowledge the truth…..that Big White Christian Bwana caused all this blood, pain, agony and death and needs to accept responsibility.
And saying they did it out of “love” is the most evil of all.
johnpi 6:59 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Aziz, allowing an uninterrupted flow of bigotry to spill out on your blog day after day will eventually lead people who don’t know you to assume you approve of it.
shams 7:13 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Because it is not just the fringe. The whole of white evangelical christians believe is their right and duty to mess with other people. That is the meaning of evangelize. I just want an acknowledgement of that.
The Granada blog was right about TI….when teh WECs cry out “why do they hate us?” instead of rubbing their pig-ignorant noses in the valid historical reasons for that hatred people here like null and johnpi say, “oh we dont hate you, its just those bad muslims over there…those extreme fringe muslims”.
Well I wont play that.
Let me repeat….interfaith dialog with WECs is useless until they acknowledge they have no right to missionariism and proselytization.
shams 7:21 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
It is not bigotry Johnpi.
It is al-haqq.
Tell you what, I’ll settle for you and null just saying that WECs have no right to proselytize.
johnpi 7:34 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Shams – You’re an arrogant bigot. And your ceaseless carrying on about WECs and all non-Muslims (as when you said “There are NO non-Muslim commenters that have sufficient intellectual substrate to be persuadable.”) misrepresents American Muslims.
Aziz is being irresponsible to the Muslim community to operate a top-rated Muslim blog and then allow your bigotry to be so much of the face of the blog to the larger society.
shams 7:42 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
You can’t do it can you Johnpi?
You can’t just say WEC proselytizing is wrong?
johnpi 7:46 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
At this point Shams, I know that acknowledging any part of your narrative about WECs and non-Muslims feeds into your bigotry and leads to yet more offensive statements.
You’ve basically stated you are going to attack part of the readership of the blog (Christian readers and non-Muslims). This is by definition troll behavior, and responsible blogs all over the web ban trolls. I don’t know why Aziz would want to differ from the standard of responsible blog owners and let you carry on…
shams 7:49 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Johnpi, hundreds of thousands of muslims have died in Iraq because of the proselytization of white “judeo-christian” democracy……”democracy promotion”.
You can’t acknowledge that?
I felt that when I learned the truth about how many muslims died for Bush’s “democracy promotion.”
Can’t you hear them Johnpi?
I think Dr. Hasan heard those voices crying out for justice.
And it drove him mad.
johnpi 8:06 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
There’s a term for what you’re engaging in. You’re leveling a charge of “collective guilt,” which often leads to rationalizations for collective retaliation. And everybody knows from the recent example of Gaza that this kind of thinking can lead to deeply, deeply immoral outcomes.
shams 8:24 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
No I am not.
I just want an honest acknowledgement that evangelizing and proselytizing are basically wrong, even if they are part of a religion. That those actions don’t get a pass because of politically correct religious pandering.
The people are still dying in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they will be for a long, long time.
shams 8:31 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Evangelizing and proselytizing are immoral acts of intellectual molestation that are deeply disrespectful of other humans.
johnpi 8:36 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink
I’m sure you’ve anticipated that the definition of ‘proselytize’ is “to convert or attempt to convert” and you are ready to effective respond to the accusation of having an arbitrary double standard since you aren’t criticizing Muslims for the same behavior.
But I’ll ask anyway: In a pluralistic multi-religious society where no religion is given primacy, aren’t you applying a double standard?
shams 12:22 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Johnpi, I am a Sufi.
Sufi’s don’t proselytize.
Neither do Jews.
johnpi 12:29 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
You’re being deliberately obtuse. I’m sure you’re well aware that for the majority of Muslims, Dawah is a religious duty. Pretending we don’t exist doesn’t change that fact.
aziz 8:42 am on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
I guess I disagree on a fundamental level – I think prosletyzation and evangelizing are perfetcly valid forms of expression and free speech. I am a Darwinist when it comes to the field of ideas,a nd only by rapid dispersal and sharing of ideas can they evolve and grow more “fit” for survival. The core concepts of Islam are unchanging and eternal, but teh cultural and philosophical aspects of our faith are only strengthened by exposure to other ideas.
and yes, if someone evangelizes to someone of weak faith – like Fathima Rifqa Bary – then she may well turn away. That is her decision, and her naseeb. It is sad but it is also her responsibility. Islam – the community of believers – is strengthened by having people such as her willingly turn away from teh faith, just as a bell curve redistributes its mean upwards as you filter out the low end.
I dont see predation here. I see give and take at teh margins of competing meme complexes. You win some and you lose some, but the dynamic interchange at the edges is a source of energy that does ultimately shape teh center.
I also strongly believe that prosletyzation and evangelism are protected under secular law, free speecha nd teh Bill of Rights. I defend the right for “WECs” to do dawah of their own just as I do muslims’ right. I am not concerned that these activities will harm me or my family, because we are strong. And its foolish to worry about any harm coming to Islam for it. Islam is eternal and cannot be harmed nor warred upon nor attacked. It simply is.
Let them prosletyze. I dont care.
shams 12:21 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
That is not at all what I am talking about.
I am talking about proselytizing WEC culture by force of arms in MENA.
I am talking about the harm Big White Christian Bwana has inflicted on the rest of the world in the name do-gooder fuckery…..like triple digit population growth in Africa.
What did white evangelical christian Bush do in Iraq?
What is the Bush doctrine but proselytization of judeo-xian style government by force of arms?
WEC proselytization and evangelism are harmless (if offensive) unless they are backed by the power of the chief executive.
Until the WECs accept responsibility for the horrific damage caused by Bush’s “democracy promotion” this stuff will continue to happen.
They believe it is their right.
And Rifqa Bary was a child.
johnpi 12:31 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
Until the WECs
Assigning collective guilt to a group of people because they share the same religion is immoral. It sanctions collective violence against the innocent.
shams 12:36 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
there are no innocent.
WECs all believe it their is duty and right to evangelize.
shams 12:37 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
other wise they would not be called evangelicals.
aziz 12:38 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
WECs all believe it their is duty and right to evangelize.
as do we, as muslims and americans.
As do I.
shams 12:49 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
I don’t.
Yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
wahdat al-wujud
wahdat al-shuhud
bi la kayfah
johnpi 12:40 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
So what? As do most Muslims. You’re a hypocrite.
shams 12:50 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
lol
make up your mind….am I an arrogant bigot AND a hypocrite?
is that even possible?
johnpi 1:03 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Yes both. Commonly they go hand-in-hand.
shams 1:21 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
Now who is ad-homming?
Isnt rather hypocritical of you Johnpi?
johnpi 1:31 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink
You have made sweeping generalizations and condemnations of an entire group of people, while ignoring at the same time that the majority of the people you self-identify with are engaged in or committed to the same behavior.
My description is accurate, not ad hominen.
shams 12:34 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
No…. ….i know this will make you sad, my habbibi….but as a Ghazalian and an ardant otaku of Social Brain Hypothesis…..that is simply quite false.
It is impossible to build a dihliz with WECs…..they are already intruding into your intellectual space, and SBH mandates they will never give a centimeter.
aziz 12:36 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
I’ve been to MENA – many countries therein – and trust me, the culture we export is one they eagerly consume. Theres no “force of arms” exporting of our culture whatsoever. Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Najaf? Or San’a? Or Cairo? I have. And what I’ve seen is that arab culture is resilient enough to cope with the infusion of Western mores as well as preserve their own traditions. Like everything else, it is a souk of ideas and influences. To argue that we are imposing our culture on them, and unwillingly at that, is to infantilize them.
Africa is a mess but thats mostly Europe’s and China’s playground. We have no Africa policy.
I dont believe there exists any such thing as “judeo-xian style of government”. But democracy is something teh Iraqis themselves want. I know. I’ve asked them.
finally, FRB was 17. Thats not a child – one year shy of adult age? i know plenty of 17 year olds whose faith would not have been shaken in the least by similar experiences. The 17 year olds I know, among them there are those who make me feel like a child.
It sounds horrible to admit, but its harsh truth. Bary was weak in Deen and thats why she was so easily lured away.
shams 12:40 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
Yup, tribology, the science of rubbing….acculturation, where cultures rub off on each other.
But that is not what happened in Iraq, is it?
johnpi 1:02 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
Conflating Iraq with the entirety of the Middle East/North Africa doesn’t get you off the hook for your insulting conception of the peoples of that region.
aziz 1:09 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
But that is not what happened in Iraq, is it?
from what I’ve seen, yes it has.
shams 1:19 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
Umm….forgive me, but hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died so far in that little democracy
promotionproselytization adventure.And Johnpi, I specifically addressed the individual nature of Big White Christian Bwanas particular geo-located meddles.
I am not generalizing.
johnpi 1:32 pm on November 9, 2009 Permalink |
I think I understood your response to Aziz, but the part that was intended for me is incoherent.