Hany Saqr, director of the Noor Center, said he did not know the Bary family personally. But he refuted all the allegations raised by the teenager’s attorney.
The center, which serves 10,000 Muslims in the community, has invited a variety of speakers, including atheists, Christians and Jews, during the three years it has been open, he said.
Saqr said he thought conversion was not uncommon in the United States. “Changing the religion is something pretty natural and normal in this country,” Saqr told The Associated Press Monday in an interview.
“At our center we know that people accept Islam, some people accept Christianity, some people accept Judaism,” Saqr said. “Based on our religion we think that there’s no compulsion to religion. Everybody has the right to choose whatever religion he wants to.”
Court documents filed Monday also claimed Saqr was a former leader at Omar Ibn El-Khattab Mosque in Columbus. Federal authorities charged three men who attended the Omar mosque with terrorist-related crimes between 2003 and 2007.
Saqr told AP that he led prayers at the Omar mosque years ago as a student but was never appointed full-time.
Bary’s attorney, John Stemberger, said Saqr’s connection to the Omar mosque and the Noor Center should raise questions about the teen’s safety in Ohio.
No habla hadith? Funny how we all turn into Quranists at moments like this…just as well considering what the wise hadith chronicler Imam Muslim concluded:
…its chain of transmission (isnad) goes through a source whose narrations were rejected by Imam Muslim because of the accusations of some scholars that the man concerned (‘Ikrimah) was a liar who also accepted gifts from various political authorities.
Nobody would deny Sahih Muslim was a Muslim with great hikma…
thabet 1:25 am on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
What does that mean? Anyone can ‘lead prayers’ (depending on the masjid and the country, e.g. officialdom appoints imams in Muslim states).
thabet 1:35 am on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
But you’ve ignored the entire fiqh tradition, which probably carries more weight.
bingregory 1:42 am on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Eww, John, what is this weird spin you are putting on the article? That Imam Muslim thread includes an essay *linked approvingly to by you* reconciling the apostasy hadith with the “no compulsion” verse without any need to throw out hadith or adopt a Quran-only-ist position! Find another dead horse already…
pi.info 4:52 am on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
I’m in sarcasm mode with the throw-out-hadith, Quranist stuff. But I;m going to continue to call bullshit on the responses to this story that are wholely wrapped in the Quranic “no compulsion in religion” verse, but fail to acknowledge or reference the Bukhari hadith in question, and the widespread misunderstanding that it calls for the death penalty for apostasy without any nuance or distinction between major and minor forms, or any reference to the fact that it is a relic from another era that should be dead to us today.
And there is certainly a great population of Muslims who believe this hadith calls for the death penalty for apostates, so we need to keep pushing against it. In this Pew Center poll released a few weeks ago, 78 percent of Pakistanis believe people should receive the death penalty for leaving Islam. In Malaysia, you go to jail and get fined for trying to leave Islam. The greater part of the US population of Muslims is comprised of immigrants, and you can’t expect me to believe people got a magical wisdom transplant when they crossed the border. So even of people are keeping their big ugly death penalty beliefs to themselves, you know it is out there.
If we Muslims don’t want to be seen in public acknowledging this hadith, then maybe its time we toss it on the pile of other rejected hadith.
null 7:26 am on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Just to play devil’s advocate – but Isn’t this the preferred option? That even if some people believe in their heart of hearts that it is an authentic, bonafide Islamic position – one with great hikmah – for the state to apply the death penalty to apostates, that they keep this belief to themselves when they don’t even live in an Muslim majority country?
I got the feeling that this is one of the things you were talking about in those other threads. That even throwing around hypotheticals on these matters in private emails is dangerous to the Muslim community at large in terms of building bridges with wider society.
Immigrants might not get a “wisdom implant”, but they do understand at least that the US government** isn’t going to execute anyone – even if the hikmah is through the roof – for treason against Islam.
**Taking for granted that Muslims know vigilante violence has never been allowed in Islam, and the matter of apostates/homosexuality/adultery are not ones that lay men and women take into their hands or are allowed to mete out punishment for.
johnpi 7:04 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
…that they keep this belief to themselves…
Well, no. Let’s say you’re in a situation I was once in. Recently converted, looking for guidance, and all the well-intentioned bros and sisters are pushing me along to the really religious guy because he “really knows the religion” which makes him a “good Muslim” – perhaps even another white convert – and he’s communicating all this bad information to me. That’s not acceptable at all…
Reggie 4:18 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
So the girl goes back home and is murdered by her family or some other Muslim who thinks her “apostasy” should be punished. Then what are all of you going to say? I bet it will be the usual Isam is a religion of peace, and we don’t believe in this speech. Of course at that point its too late for her and once again there is nothing that can be done. They are still looking for the nut case in Texas who gunned down his two daughters for having American boyfriends. The fact is, no other religion on the planet is causing the amount of death and destruction as Islam. Try cleaning up your act, actually building or creating something to make like better and we might start to trust you.
Reggie 4:21 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
that should read make life better.
eliza 5:31 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Her affidavit has been posted at rifqabary.com. I wonder if Qawadari’s presence at the Noor Center helped drive her away from Islam. She was baptized by Korean Methodists.
johnpi 6:24 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Wow. rifqabary.com. Talk about taking someone’s name in vain. It’s almost certain that Fathima Rifqa Bary herself isn’t aware of this website. Apparently Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are going to ride her right into the gutter. Amazing.
As Aziz alluded to, if this girl ever wakes up and realizes what she has given herself over to..let’s just say I pray she has the power and the support to forgive herself.
johnpi 6:48 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Qawadari? What are you talking about? Do you mean Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Egyptian cleric?
He has been banned from the US since 1999 according to his Wikipedia page. Since Rifqa Bary didn’t land in the US until 2000, it would be pretty hard for him to have had some effect on her at the Islamic center in Columbus, Ohio. Did they beam him in with a Star Trek transporter perhaps?
What black hole do you reach back and pull this stuff out of?
eliza 6:54 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
I guess an affidavit is public property. I was surprised to see it there. It amazes me that she has been living in this rebellion for 4 years. I presume the pastor is still in trouble for harboring a minor. Too bad she went to that type of church, she should have stuck with the Korean Methodists.
eliza 6:57 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Hm, maybe I spelled his name wrong. They say there was a radical at the mosque. Black hole? The internet of course.
johnpi 7:20 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
lol. The internet, no doubt. Happy to be able to correct any bad information you’ve got.
Interesting fact: I Googled your Qawadari spelling and its use is widespread and nearly exclusive to the anti-Muslim, anti-Islam blogosphere, Xian division.
I’m afraid you’ve been hanging out in the wrong neighborhood and running with the wrong crowd. Those people play fast and loose with the facts – and everything else. You should have more respect for yourself and not hang out with those losers.
eliza 7:32 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Here. http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/08/31/rifqa-bary-and-the-noor-center%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Ctheology%E2%80%9D-of-apostasy/
I am aware that Spencer et al often have partial info or incorrect facts. Spencer often creates the impression that hordes of people are on the rampage. Alarmist that he is, he still brings up worthwhile points.
I don’t keep track of who’s who, I was just looking for info on Bary case. I skimmed this article, maybe I got it wrong.
thabet 10:53 pm on September 1, 2009 Permalink |
Andrew Bostom. Heh.
eliza 6:32 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
For some reason I think muslims are quite as capable as any one else of broadcasting
partial info or incorrect facts.
When I googled Bary that’s what came up. Her affidavit is worth reading, if not the op ed of whoever posted it.
eliza 6:37 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
In the anxiety to protect their children from the evil world, parents will overdo church attendance. The kids run off, mentally or physically.
I think it’s possible mosques do a combination of things. Sweetness and light rally on Monday, terrorism meeting involving only a few on Tuesday.
bingregory 7:58 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
The sweetness and light rally is on Monday?! Good to know! All these terrorism meetings get a bit tedious after a while.
null 8:21 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
But the buffet is always so much better at the terrorism meetings. I’m torn.
thoss 9:26 pm on September 11, 2009 Permalink |
I understand your concern.
sui sen 6:53 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
People tend to miss the fact that the Bary family have already known the conversion of Rifqa to Christianity for years. It was only when she started proselytizing in school that her parents warned her about its inapproriateness. If Rifqa’s allegation is true that her parents want her dead for converting then why wait after so many years? Why just now?
Obviously many people just want to hate Islam and would jump in any opportunity to demonize it…
Sad, so sad…
eliza 9:17 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
The buffet is better because the food has been swiped from French restaurants.
null 9:29 am on September 2, 2009 Permalink |
Hi eliza. There’s a faint little Reply button next to the comment you wish to respond to. It helps keep the boards ordered and easier to read. Or are you purposefully ignoring it? Is this your amateur infidel version of stealth jihad?
thabet 5:23 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
French food? Urgh.
Quranist 6:50 am on September 9, 2009 Permalink |
With the collapse of Ja’far Al Sadiq’s empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal’s slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik’s Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa’s Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?
The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY’S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times…
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants…
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)…
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification…
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability…
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death…
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths…
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)…
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence – no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards…
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)…
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time�
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases…
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all…
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur’an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.
The concept of the Sunnah was invented by Imam Al Shafi in his Risala treatise. It has the same place in Islam as the Talmud has on Judaism. Jesus condemned the Talmud and its followers the Pharisees in the Gospel and so did the Koran.
Matt 15:1-3 “Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?”
midwinterspring 11:56 am on September 9, 2009 Permalink |
That’s great. Say, I have some questions about how to pray, could you point me to the section in the Qur’an where it explains how to perform salat?
thabet 5:28 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
MWS,
There was quite a big discussion between a Quranist and various readers of TI several months ago. You might be interested in it.
Btw, Quranist, please don’t spam the threads. That’s my job on the main front page
midwinterspring 3:39 pm on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
That was definitely an interesting conversation, thanks for the link.
pi.info 4:47 pm on September 12, 2009 Permalink
I was going to mention that. It’s too bad he didn’t come back around for some follow up. Hit and run is bad Internet adab. It’s not spam if you hang around and defend it/engage in a conversation…
pi.info 4:55 pm on September 12, 2009 Permalink
OTOH, Quranists probably don’t get alot of adab extended to them, which might have made this critter gun shy..
eliza 2:52 pm on September 9, 2009 Permalink |
Maybe the Koran does not care how you perform salat.
thoss 9:23 pm on September 11, 2009 Permalink |
Are you trying to wind us up?
eliza 5:33 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
Will God look at your forehead or your heart?
thabet 5:35 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
Why either/or? Why not both?
eliza 6:07 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
God probably does look at both.
eliza 9:21 am on September 12, 2009 Permalink |
According to Revelations, it is better not to have a mark on your forehead. Guess I’ll stick with that.
Quranist 3:25 am on September 24, 2009 Permalink |
I didn’t run I am just very busy these days. As far as Salat is concerned, Quranist do not have a ritualistic form of prayers but the Quran does give us guidelines about salat which you can get here:
http://www.quran-islam.org/165.html
Otherwise many Quranist pray like Sunnis however the Quran does mention two prayers by name, morning and evening(fajr and Isha) and there is debate about Salat Al Wusta which some believe is a third. Generally the Old tetsament seems to indicate three times a day with prostration and bowing and kneeling .
Quran is peace!
Quranist 3:30 am on September 24, 2009 Permalink |
The Quran tells us regarding Torah and Gospel:
Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers merciful one to another. You see them bowing, prostrating, seeking blessing, bounty and good pleasure (of God). Their mark is on their faces, the trace of prostration. That is their likeness in the Torah, and their likeness in the Gospel: as a seed that puts forth its shoot, and strengthens it, and it grows strong and rises straight upon its stalk, pleasing the sowers, that through them it may enrage the unbelievers. God has promised those of them who believe and do deeds of righteousness forgiveness and a mighty wage(48:29)
Lets see what Quran is talking about:
Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
Revelations 7:11-12 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Joshua 7:6-7 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the Lord until eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads. 7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord God, wherefore hast Thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!
Numbers 16:20-22 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt Thou be wroth with the all of the congregation?
Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto them.
Matthew 26:36-39 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gesthemane, and saith unto his disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be very sorrowful and heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou Wilt.
Then the man bowed down and worshipped the Lord. (Genesis, 24:26)
…So they sang praises with gladness and bowed their heads and worshipped. (2 Chronicles, 29:30)
and I bowed down and worshiped the Lord. I praised the Lord…(Genesis, 24:48)
…. Then the people bowed down and worshipped…did just what the Lord commanded Moses and Aaron. (Exodus, 12:27-28)
and they believed. And when they heard that the Lord was concerned about them and had seen their misery, they bowed down and worshipped. (Exodus, 4:31)
and bowed down…three times, with his face to the ground. (1 Samuel, 20:41)
Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshipped. (Exodus, 34:
When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. (Numbers, 16:4)
the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened. (Numbers, 24:4)
Then Joshua bowed to the ground in reverence…(Joshua, 5:14)
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—He is God! The Lord—He is God!”(1 Kings, 18:39)
when I bow down in the temple…may the Lord forgive your servant for this. (2 Kings, 5:18)
they bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord. (1 Chronicles, 29:20)
they knelt on the pavement with their faces to the ground, and they worshipped and gave thanks to the Lord…(2 Chronicles, 7:3)
Quran is peace !
Quranist 4:16 am on September 25, 2009 Permalink |
By the way, you guys here got some great stuff but you need an email subscribtion to article postings so people can know if there are any new comments in a particular subject they are following up rather than leaving it to people to follow up on their own. There is too much happening in the net to remember everytime and everywhere you posted.
As you can see neither the Quran nor the previous scriptures has anything about HOW to pray the way Jews and Muslims understand it since these religions rely on oral traditions(Talmud and Hadith) however Christianity has no oral traditions which is why Christianity has no ritualistic form of prayer like Judiasm and Islam. This is what I call the tribal mindset of the semites. Like their pagan brethren, religion is a form and not an essence. Thats why for Muslims haj ritual is very ritualistic and in time hypocrisy builds since people do things out of habit and not heart.
Quran is peace!