I viewed some of the Hizb ut Tahrir America teleconference and videos yesterday. And I had a few reactions I wanted to share.
My first reaction was: poor, deluded, idealistic fools. Their argument: Capitalism does not equal America. Capitalism is a failing system which needs a backup. Islam is a proven system which can replace capitalism. Then America will be Islamic.
Uh…logic errors aside, can you go ahead an show me a list of current Islamic countries that are on top of their game? Show how that government will work within the context of the West. You have Indonesia, maybe, and…. Turkey? Maybe? A little weak.
My second reaction was to reconsider a broader argument for Islamic Finance, not to replace, but as an alternative, another choice to the chaotic system we have now which is so vulnerable to schemes and manipulation. How is it OK that Enron and Worldcom and Madoff have “made off” with all our money? Who was supposed to be watching that?
Ethics and oversight are major concerns. Here, I actually see a place for religion and banking. Even though we all know that no one grabs money like a greedy mullah, still, I can see a bank which is regulated by ethics and standards which stem from Islam and I would gladly put my money there, if given the choice and shown how it works to my advantage. A little research showed some promise.
Here is a passage from an article today entitled, Islamic Finance Offers Good Governance To Conventional Banking:
He said Islamic finance could also help the global finance industry to be more aware of following the rules and curtailing excess as well as create an infrastructure of honesty, fairness and integrity.
“But, I also believe Islamic finance can offer much more than this,” Raja Nazrin, who is also the financial ambassador for the Malaysia International Islamic Financial Centre, said.
“At its heart, Islamic finance is an ispiration towards good finance.As we have seen, good finance is about trust, and trust is a cornerstone of stability.
“Therefore, I believe that Islamic finance can help break the vicious cycle of boom and bust that has come to characterise global finance,” he said.
Islamic finance is now a truly global market, participating across borders with a vast range of investment alternatives including sukuk, mutual funds, commodity funds, equity traded funds, real estate investment trusts, shariah compliant derivatives and hedge funds.
People, western or not, want their life’s saving to be safe and they want it to grow and be stable and sufficient to support them in their old age and to pass on as a legacy to their children. If Islamic banking can do this, under sharia, fine. I will put my money there. It would be like a green movement. Do something ethical with your money rather than give it to The Exploiters.
My final reaction was to note that, while Hizb ut Tahrir are not the finatical kooks I thought they might be, it it obvious that they have no serious grasp of diverse social structure or protecting pluralism in any serious way.
In their utopia, the US Constitution, for instance, would be submitted completely to Sharia and non-Muslims would be socially vulnerable.
Hizb ut Tahrir world suffers, like most Muslim shangri-las, from a backwards looking idealism. Civilizations that don’t evolve and progress die. If Muslim organizations cannot accept this and learn to bring Islam forward to this century, they will continue to be irrelevant and out-of-place in the West.

Shams al-Nahar 2:49 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
Wallah, there is actually a whole family of thought about these things…..it is part of Third Culture social theory.
Here is a book.
We already live under shariah law in the US…..shariah law is just the encoding of local religio-social mores and taboos into legislation and jurisprudence…..for example….the prohibition against same sex marriage in California is shariah law.
Buzz Kill 3:23 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
Third Culture in the Edge.org way or the Multi-Cultural, Global Ethics way?
I am aware that the US lives under a Law like Shariah. However, it was framed to separate Church and State which is what has helped the US become a pleasant social environment to live and work for most people.
I am also aware that the United States is also vulnerable to its own laws and mores. Capitalism is failing hard and deregulation and the long parade of scammers have worked the system in a way that is very unfair to its citizens and the world.
The USA also needs to evolve. But it is also natural for empires to fall. Happened to Islam and it will probably happen to the USA. I think America will be a more pleasant place to live when we pass the baton to rule the planet on to the next empire.
Shams al-Nahar 3:31 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
The Brockman book from the Snow book….I guess that is what Edge went on.
Shams al-Nahar 3:38 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
Consider COIN…Kilcullen is a Third Culture scientist articulating social network theory as mil strat….
Islamic finance is an evolved strategy for mediating survial of the greediest.
A good EGT person could spec it.
Shams al-Nahar 3:46 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
Evolutionary Games Theory
Buzz Kill 4:16 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
The problem with the American culture game is there is no cohesiveness. There is nothing to bind it together. People understand and sympathize with Bernard Madoff insanity alot better than I thought they would. The outrage was muted IMO.
This has been ramping up for more than 30 years. The WWII generation were the last Americans I think who sensed a deep social responsibility. Since Nixon, it has been an individualist affair. Grab all you can while you can. The short-sighted strategy has completely exposed its weakness and now would be a good time to modify the game.
The wisdom of Islam (or any religious wisdom which accurately portrays a connection and interdependence) can address this short-coming of American culture. It works slowly and will take decades to sink in.
Meanwhile, I think these Muslim orgs see their greatness in the past and want to recapture a lost era. The greatness is in the Qur’an and not in lost empires and vast caliphates. That is pure telenovela.
So the selfish gene doesn’t really survive until the altruism ethics is permanently embedded.
razib, murtad fitri 5:20 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
buzz kill, you do know that the polling data shows a strong shift toward social democratic orientation among the under 35, right?
Shams al-Nahar 7:51 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
Sillie buzzkill……there is no altruism in nature.
Buzz Kill 9:49 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
Shams
Richard Dawkins:
From THE SELFISH GENE: THIRTY YEARS ON
Thursday 16 March 2006
The Old Theatre (Old Building, LSE, Houghton Street, London WC2A 2AE)
Buzz Kill 9:53 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
Razib
No, I did not realize that. There seems to be a generational shift of attitudes as the baby boom set move into retirement and gen x and post gen x (kids) move into the work place and positions of influence in the world.
I thought it was too early to say anything definitely except the kind of stuff that real marketing intelligence finds out:
What kind of products they’ll buy and what their spending habits are.
A source would be great.
Shams al-Nahar 11:38 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
pfft….it is what Sir Richard himself said.
He meant..there is no altruism outside of the immediate genetic kin, the shared genome.
His example was the songbird that warned the flock, and sacrificed itself for the greater DNA.
there is no species wide altruism in homo sapiens sapiens.
only altruism for genetic or memetic kin.
Buzz Kill 11:42 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink
Is Allah altruistic?
Shams al-Nahar 9:31 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Hmm….what Sir Richard meant is that genes can be altruistic, that is genes look out for other genes ….so the appearance of altruism in nature is false, like the songbird that gives his life to warn the flock preserves a greater quantity of related DNA than just his own…Sir Richard thinks of genes, the smallest discrete unit of inheritance, as ….almost swarms of symbiotes carried by individual vectors.
Altruism means putting the welfare of “others”=peers above ones own? But the Divine Beloved has no peers……the Real Most High is peerless.
Allah is the compassionate, the caring.
But we are not peer to Allah.
Buzz 12:12 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink
So we were not created in Allah’s image?
What a blow! I thought I came from good stock.
Buzz Kill 2:54 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Don’t place barriers between Friends.
I refuge to Allah from all that is not Allah
Altruism
Shams al-Nahar 5:35 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink
wallah, u ax meh is Allah altruistic, not if I had I’thar.
as for the Turing heresy….
Buzz Kill 6:30 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Yeah, I see your point.
Don’t know the answer to that one.
Allah is Most Gracious and Most Merciful
and it is really all about Allah.
Me Me Me.
Hmmm. Head wringer.
Shams al-Nahar 3:45 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
But we don’t have separation of church and state.
GW killed more Americans in Iraq with that Gog/Magog lunacy than UBL did in the Twin Towers. And spent a trillion dollars doing it.
Shams al-Nahar 2:52 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
I imagine Hizb ut Tahir would favor islamic shariah law to replace American shariah law, tho.
thabet 11:40 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
Why are people taking HT seriously?
Buzz Kill 11:59 pm on August 11, 2009 Permalink |
They are a typical muslim organization. Not that different from CAIR or ISNA or others.
Buzz Kill 12:01 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
That is not what I really want to get into. It is more about general Muslim orgs looking back, not forward. Hizb ut Tahrir was just a catalyst for the discussion.
thabet 12:06 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
OK, fair enough.
But I think there is a significant part of any sort of Islam that will always “look back” to the time of the Prophet.
Buzz Kill 12:08 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
Which is fine so long as they figure WWPMD in this decade rather than what would we do in the 7th Century.
Anybody that buys a miswak from a muslim store is a bit of a knucklehead.
Buzz Kill 12:10 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
No shit, I saw a box of shrinkwrapped miswaks for $2.95 each. I am SURE the Prophet, being here today, would say, “What the hell, knucklehead? Why aren’t you using a toothbrush or a waterpick?”
Buzz Kill 12:11 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
There are a lot of miswaks we need to leave back in history.
thabet 12:16 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Heh, I like this.
Buzz Kill 12:18 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Forgot to mention: my personal opinion is that the backwards looking is so ingrained in the mind of the individuals and culture throughout the middle east, that to survive, Islam will have to adopt converts in the West.
It will become so ridiculous and intolerable in the older countries that people will either kill each other or abandon it completely.
Exhibit A
thabet 12:20 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
This is not a new question. The tension between what is temporal, to be ignored or abandoned based on circumstances, and what is trans-historical, or universal, goes to heart of all traditions.
razib, murtad fitri 12:23 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Forgot to mention: my personal opinion is that the backwards looking is so ingrained in the mind of the individuals and culture throughout the middle east, that to survive, Islam will have to adopt converts in the West.
LOL. dude, if you weren’t a mus yourself this would open to you all sorts of “critique.” mighty-whitey-come-to-save-islam
though i think this might actually be more fair than not. the buddhist engagement with the west starting in the 19th century seems to have resulted in increased vigor of eastern buddhism through back-migration of new ideas (the historical chain of influence on therevada revivalism in sri lanka via post-theosophist white converts is of particular interest to me).
Buzz Kill 12:24 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
It is particularly virulent with Islam.
Buzz Kill 12:30 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Razib
It is not racial superiority, it is human nature. Islam is the spiritual and cultural grand prize to civilization from the Middle East. Look how they are treating it. Look how they respect it. Clearly, it is and has been in a state of decline for a long time.
Look at the United States and democracy. It is the grand prize to civilization from a young country which is barely more than 200 years old and already we have f-d it up and allowed corruption in so deep, we’ll never be able to clean it up.
In dunya, things run from a state of higher order to lower order as a general rule – entropy?
thabet 12:36 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Don’t place humans on a pedestal and you won’t be disappointed. We’re all flawed.
Buzz Kill 1:02 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
Ha! I could say the same to you about dozens of your posts.
I won’t if you won’t.
Actually, I think this whole thread has been about not being idealistic. Not attempting to reach a prior perceived perfection.
Human beings are not fatally flawed, we are a mixture of purity and impurity pulling at each other. Tension builds, something has to give one way or the other.
That’s all. It can be beautiful. Plenty of examples.
thabet 1:33 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
I learnt the hard way not to do that
Shams al-Nahar 9:41 am on August 12, 2009 Permalink
The Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Once when I was small my New York grandmother took me to the UN building….there was a vast gorgeous persian carpet hanging on the wall. The legend is the famous craftsman that wove it put in a deliberate flaw, because perfect beauty is perfectly boring.
We are imperfectly beautiful.
And….al-Islam is a process, brother Buzz.
bi la kayfa
thabet 1:11 am on August 13, 2009 Permalink
Similar sentiments have been expressed by others, including reformist/modernist intellectuals who believed the West was freer to allow more ‘creative’ thinking.
Mu'adh 9:16 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
Buzz kill, please observe some basic respect for the prophet. ur assertion that you are “SURE” that he would do such and such is based on little more than your own sensitivities. secondly, the language you ascribe to the hypothetical statement of the prophet is disgusting.
Buzz Kill 9:33 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
Sorry you were offended.
I meant no disrespect towards Prophet Muhammad (which I am *SURE* you know).
In any case, I could have worded it differently.
Shams al-Nahar 9:23 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
Salaams brother mu’adh
Why is that language disgusting?
Shams al-Nahar 9:28 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
I mean…when I think about the Prophet I feel heartmelt.
He loved the people so much……he wanted the people to have health…why wouldn’t he have wanted the people to have the best dental care?
Buzz Kill 9:55 pm on August 12, 2009 Permalink |
lol. You’re the best Shams.
I think Mu’adh objected to the casual and careless way I portrayed the Holy Prophet (s). And he is right.
Thank you Brother for your kind nasiha.