An Iranian blogger (who recently started tweeting @shahrzadmo) I know for two years is interviewd by AJE.
I respect the protesters’ passion. Sadly, it is now fairly certain that they are pawns in somebody else’s game.
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Safia 4:02 pm on June 20, 2009 Permalink |
Pawns in whose game, and what is fairly certain? From what I can tell from the protests, it seems less and less about Mousavi or Ahmadinejad and the election, and more about protesting the system (“death to dictator, death to Khamenei” chants, not so much “death to Ahmadinejad”).
manas 1:23 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Sorry, I was offline for a while.
I think the Iranian protesters are being used as pawns to bring down a government the “West” does not like.
The use of color, the full weight of corporate media thrown behind the protesters. The heavy, effective and coordinated use of social media and so on- are all signature of foreign hand.
But above all, if there is an Iranian revolution against the government- will the “West” fail to take advantage?
razib 1:33 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
you’re dumb. the “use of color”??? wtf.
razib 2:02 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
oh, you didn’t mention cellphones either. OMG, cellphones, don’t western companies them!?!?!
there’s a lot of stuff people post here that i *disagree* with, but usually people have something between the ears….
johnpi 4:14 pm on June 20, 2009 Permalink |
it is now fairly certain that they are pawns in somebody else’s game.
Cryptic. Sounds very “Paranoid Style in American Politics”:
razib 7:54 pm on June 20, 2009 Permalink |
yeah, you can’t leave that hanging. we’re not mind readers, say what you want to say and don’t be cryptic.
thabet 10:37 pm on June 20, 2009 Permalink |
Fourth’d.
Come on, what do you mean by ‘fairly certain’.
manas 1:08 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Here:
http://www.countercurrents.org/petras200609.htm
razib 1:32 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
fyi, that article is full made up crap. i know cuz i’ve looked at actuall survey data.
manas 2:50 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
which actual survey data?
razib 3:12 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
the world values survey. you can break down by age, region, religious attitude, etc.
manas 3:29 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Look at a poll survey. Not religious outlook. It’s a bad indicator of who will get the vote. For example in swat the people (who are generally are very religious) vote for secular parties.
I’m centre-left myself, but this (Indian parliamentary) election I voted for the for a center-right party as opposed to a leftist party. Why? Because the leftist candidate was corrupt.
razib 3:46 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
. It’s a bad indicator of who will get the vote. For example in swat the people (who are generally are very religious) vote for secular parties.
the poll has stuff on which groups favored which parties in 2005. and stop changing the subject. you threw out a bizarro conspiracy theory.
as if people haven’t used colors for thousands of years and that coordinated social media is somehow western. LOL. ask that to my cousin at al-azar who convinced me to join facebook. jesus.
Nima 3:46 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
The middle class and educated sector of the iranian population is absolutely sick of this filthy regime.
I hope they succeed in toppling the regime and could care less if this benefits the US.
razib 3:48 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
btw, i wonder if the abbasids picked black as their party’s color because of manipulation by the byzantines? after all, color as a factional marker must be western.
Naila 6:24 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
First of all, Razib, I am curious to know why you — a self proclaimed agnostic who in posts throughout the web has shown himself to be virulently anti-Muslim — is doing here on this website? Your own writings show you to be an apologists for neocons. You routinely bash Islam and Muslims. Go back to your Steve Sailors and your pseudoscience blogs.
People, don’t take this joker seriously.
razib 6:40 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
i’m an atheist dumbass
Naila 6:49 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
No, you’re the dumbass.
Coming onto a TalkIslam site to push your neocon talking points is nothing more than trolling. Your knowledge of the Muslim world is pretty much the same as that of a redneck who might have done some larnin’ from FoxNews.
Go troll somewhere else. Better yet, get off the internet and do some traveling.
Safia 7:03 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink
Razib can defend himself, but I think he’s contributed more than you Naila. If he’s going to post virulent anti-Muslim things here, which I have not seen, there are plenty of people and Muslims here who would engage him and would strongly disagree. From what I can see, you are the one trolling and attacking.
Dan 9:53 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Naila get lost and go back to posting on IslamicAwakening.
manas 4:03 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
no, any protest against ahmadinejad must be valid. that’s the point. i get it now.
Safia 7:28 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
I think your reasoning though is weak. Twitter, Facebook, etc are not controlled by the West. I think the friend whose interview you linked to has a much better argument (whether you agree or not), that the protesters may not be reflective of Iranian society as a whole, than your argument.
“But above all, if there is an Iranian revolution against the government- will the “West” fail to take advantage?”
I’m assuming here by the West you mean America, but I’m sure they will do their best to take advantage. I don’t know if that is supposed to be a “eureka!” point, that America will try to use situations to their advantage.
And if you’ve been reading some of the media here, you can tell that there is plenty of concern that Mousavi would be bad for the US over someone the govt can easily make a villain, like Ahmadinejad. Even Obama made a point to say that there might not be that many differences, foreign policy wise, between the two.
I’m not sure why it would be difficult to think the protesters are acting based on their own will. If you want to point to the Western media analysis as being a little weak or contrived, OK. Anything else I have a hard time seeing.
Naila 7:16 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
I am sorry that you think I am trolling, but I have seen Razib Khan in many other sites, his MO is the same.
If anyone posts anything that is pro-Palestinian, he jumps on it with typical pro-Israel talking points like accusations of antisemitism and then spins the narrative and keep attacking, asking for sources, then denouncing the sources, and then keep at it, like he did in this thread and in others here. He does this routinely.
You can see Razib’s writings here at gnxp.com. It’s a pseudosciene blog, and he often posts “studies” with very strong political bias. Mind you, he doesn’t have a degree in genetics.
Read his “essay” here
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2003/sep/08/00022/
Here you will see what tenor of political attitude he brings.
I am sure Razib can defend himself, but I want to point out how he goes from website to website attacking anyone who is remotely pro-Arab, pro-Muslim, or, God forbid, pro-Palestinian.
Be informed and do what you want with the information. I see manas and others falling into his trap and trying to defend themselves. Razib is out to just troll, nothing else.
Safia 7:57 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Naila, I think you believe Razib just showed up here today. He’s been posting for a long time now. I also think those who have extended him an invitation are aware of other things he has written on the web, I assume that is why he was invited in the first place.
razib 8:05 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
since i guest posted on aziz’s weblog in 2003 i would think he would be familiar with my body of work.
Naila 8:16 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Safia,
I don’t think he just showed up here.
I came upon this site recently and was amused to find Razib here — especially after seeing how he continues, to this day, to use the exact same arguments to counter anybody with a Pro-palestinian grief or pro-Arab point. His views of Pakistanis is worse.
I don’t know who extended the invitation to him. I am only presenting my point of view, and I ask other readers to consider what political agenda Razib’s arguments might have.
What is worrisome is that instead of wearing his biases against Arabs and Palestinians on his sleeve, he hides it behind “science” and “rationality.”
When he argues, he tries to use “science” jargon — as a way to intimidate. But if you see that he is just posturing, you can see quickly that he is just repeating the same Muslim-hate seen in America.
In America, people don’t come out and bash Muslims. they use “Western science” and rational thought to promote the idea that Muslims are intolerant, inherently antisemitic, and superstitious and backward. This is Razib’s MO.
I am a devout Muslim and an intellectual, and I have no desire to pick on anyone. However, I do think we need to go against Muslim bashers with intellectual and intelligent thought.
I came here only to find some essays for my son. I saw Razib posting here, and was surprised. Then I saw his usual style of trolling on the pro-Palestine post made by someone, and I could see that no one was countering his very flawed arguments. He was deliberately taking the issue off topic (which is a common tactic), and no one but the original blogger was countering and being defensive. The blogger was cornered by Razib’s erroneous counter arguments, and not one Muslim is on there to intellectually counter the obvious game Razib was playing.
It is interesting because if no one will come in to defend the Palestinian point of view even on an islamic website, what hope is there in the real world.
Anyway, I have found another site to visit for my son. I don’t know who the Admin is here, but I would ask for more critical inquiry into who is posting here and why.
Peace be on you.
Salaam.
johnpi 8:31 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Wow. Did you leave 6,000 messages on Razib’s email when he dumped you or what?
Razib, serves you right. This is what you get for dating blonds…
johnpi 8:39 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink
A song for you – by the Plain White T’s.
Safia 8:59 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
We’re all Americans here (except for a couple of Brits who are easy to spot because they don’t spell using proper English!) and mostly Muslim, so we are all aware of anti-Muslim language. My point in saying that Razib has been here a while is that he has argued with plenty of people, and no one is the worse for wear. There is no need for so many warnings about sneaky internet tactics, I assure you.
“It is interesting because if no one will come in to defend the Palestinian point of view even on an islamic website, what hope is there in the real world.”
Then you definitely have not been reading TalkIslam long if you think no one defends the Palestinian point of view.
And John, kind of sad on your part that because she has identified herself as a woman, now she’s a ‘crazed stalker’ instead of just someone arguing on the internet.
pi.info 9:08 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink
kind of sad on your part that because she has identified herself as a woman, now she’s a ‘crazed stalker’
That is your narrative, and so belongs entirely to you. I think if you reflected on it, you would acknowledge that ’stalking’ in the broad culture is gendered male, not female, and the interpretation you have applied to my comment is completely arbitrary.
pi.info 9:21 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink
I count 10 posts across the top two threads tonight by Naila that are specifically about Razib and attack his character. I would say Niala’s contribution this evening has been unprecedented. I’m surprised you would soft-pedal this by calling it ” someone arguing on the internet.”
Conrad Barwa 2:45 am on June 22, 2009 Permalink |
Naila,
I don’t know where you get some of what you are saying about Razib from; I am pretty sure most of it is unfair. I hold opposite views to Razib’s on almost everything (including blondes!) but he has always been polite and reasoned in his arguements and engaged. At least on this site, most of the time I seem to be taking the piss out of his posts rather than anything else. I don’t think there is any obligation for anybody to be pro-Palestinan or pro-Arab as such and I speak as someone who is definitely the former; I certainly can’t see anyplace on here where Razib is as virulently anti-Palestinian, Arab etc. as you claim. People sometimes have very different views to our own on a wide variety of subjects; instead of expecting them to conform, one should examine their arguements and enter into some critical discussion with them. I think we can leanr more from those who are from opposite intellectual camps than from just repetititve groupthink.
aziz 6:54 am on June 22, 2009 Permalink |
Naila –
I am Aziz, one of the Admins of this site and the one who invited Razib. I don’t much care for your argument here but I find it useful as a foil to make some general assertions.
First, when someone new shows up here and accuses someone who has credibility and respect, of having a “political agenda”, I think it speaks more about the agenda of teh accuser than the accused. Your anonymity and lack of record might seem advantageous to you in making your character attack, but it really just undermines your credibility. If you were a regular member of the community then your concerns might be worth taking seriously, but even then they’d have to have some merit rather than be so selectively cherry-picked. It takes guts to be a blogger for seven years and leave a trail of opinions behind you that can be selectively cherry-picked by anyone with an axe to grind; you aren’t remotely qualified to criticize Razib, so don’t embarass yourself further by trying.
And – I dunno about you, but science jargon isn’t intimidating to me in the least. Thats because I and many others on this thread can sling that jargon around with as much ease as Razib can. I’m sorry you find science to be scary and intimidating, but to me its a welcome relief to find someone who voluntarily tries to bind themselves by its doctrines when they craft an argument. You’d do well to learn from Razib’s example, as your current efforts at making your case fall woefully short of persuasive.
manas 9:25 am on September 5, 2009 Permalink
razib 7:29 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
i’m pretty sure ‘naila’ is going off a particular dossier which accuses me of being an anti-gay neocon who is sad that he didn’t get into med school. in any case, yes, i have said many things over the past 7 years. the only fact i would interject is yes, i do have a degree in biology, with a concentration in genetics.
Safia 9:24 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
“I think if you reflected on it, you would acknowledge that ’stalking’ in the broad culture is gendered male, not female, and the interpretation you have applied to my comment is completely arbitrary.”
OK, my new interpretation is that you are using the “psycho ex-girlfriend” type which is pretty well known in the broad culture. Maybe you should reflect that it comes across as pretty cheap and might discourage other women from posting here.
pi.info 10:09 pm on June 21, 2009 Permalink |
Your response is to the movie ‘Obsessed’ that developed a “psycho ex-girlfriend’ storyline. The clip feature I used is embedded in the script of the movie.
You’re also selectively ignoring the other link I provided where a male is singing a song from the stalker point of view.
And again, 10 posts across two threads of personal attacks on one person…”someone arguing on the internet.” Selective all over the place.
might discourage other women from posting here
The most helpful thing you could do would be to identify a pattern when a pattern develops. Otherwise, your criticism has kind of a shallow ‘gotcha’ character to it.
As for this instance, I make no apology for mocking Naila. If you search this site on the word ‘mock,’ it’s fair play when used in response to spammers and trolls.
Conrad Barwa 2:48 am on June 22, 2009 Permalink |
PMSL – this made my day, thank you
pi.info 7:10 am on June 22, 2009 Permalink |
Oh good, somebody caught mt blond joke. Here’s another: