Act of stupidity: Two people shot at Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
I’ve never been to the museum, but it was described to me once by someone who did as an incredibly disturbing and moving experience. What a place to do something stupid…
Islam News @ NYT- Swedish Artist Says Sketch of Prophet Aimed to Mock All Religions: A man who prosecutors say was the target of a murder plot says his caricature of the Prophet Muhammad was intended to poke fun at all sacred symbols.
- Nigerians Recount Night of Their Bloody Revenge: This week dozens of herdsmen slaughtered hundreds of people in a brutal act of sectarian retribution in Jos.
- Views of ‘JihadJane’ Were Unknown to Neighbors: The ex-husband of the woman who called herself “JihadJane” said she “was just like anyone else.”
-
Would you like your own blog hosted at Talk Islam? Email the admin at "salaam at talk islam dot info" !
Talk Islam uses Wordpress MU and the Prologue theme by Automattic
DISCLAIMER: Please see the About Talk Islam page for fair use issues and our privacy policy.
DONATE: Talk Islam needs your support!
BuzzK 12:08 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Why do we need a holocaust museum? Is it next to the Genocides museum? Do Jews need preferred atrocity status? Does “Holocaust” mean something different than genocide? Should victims of genocide be considered “less tragic” than victims of the “holocaust?”
I’m just asking
johnpi 12:21 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
I honestly don’t know. I just remember the person who told me, who was Jewish, describing being moved to the point of tears by the piles of shoes and piles of glasses of victims.
plimfix 11:54 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
BuzzK, I think there is something unique about Shoa. This was a continent wide massacre (Most European nations included plenty of people who helped the Nazis kill Jews), the first to be carried out in a systematic, industrial way over such a protacted period of time. European Jews – ashkenazis – were almost wiped out. Its location, it’s use of imperialist racism, and its links to long-standing Christian anti-Semitism, demand it be seen as crucial to the unwinding of some of the less pleasant threads of European history. European Nazis’ focus on holocaust denial is no coincidence – it is crucial to them rewriting histories of nationalisms as unproblematic.
aziz 9:43 am on June 11, 2009 Permalink |
it wasn’t unique. There were equivalent-scale genocides under communist rule in the far east in the 20th century and on the North American continent during the colonial era.
The Holocaust was a human tragedy and belongs to all humankind, not just Jews. By setting it apart and distancing ourselves from it, and validating teh right-wing jewish attempt to preserve it as a unique marker of their sole victimization, we help ensure that it will happen again.
Safia 12:21 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Really? That’s your “just asking” when you hear someone’s been shot there? And you should go for a visit, maybe it’ll answer some of your questions.
BuzzK 4:21 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
I have no interest in going there. As an American, I think I do plenty for Israel. More than enough. Hey! I have an idea! Maybe I’ll go see the 9/11 museum in Jerusalem. And London. And Islamabad.
What??? No 9/11 museum?
Safia 12:36 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
FYI, shooter is a 89 yr old (!!) white supremacist according to CNN.
BuzzK 3:34 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
America is so divided right now. It is a place where no norms are expected, everything is hyperbolic and everyone is in it completely for themselves. Weird, dysfunctional. Wonderful.
Safia 4:00 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Uh, OK then…
Sad news, the guard who was shot has died.
CBS has a summary of the domestic extremism report released by Homeland Security earlier this year.
CBS News
Safia 4:46 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
So if I’m understanding correctly, because not every atrocity has a museum, no atrocity should, is that right?
And I’ve been for a visit, and remarkably I was able to leave without wanting to swear an oath to Israel. It’s amazing how I can keep more than one thought in my head at once.
BuzzK 5:03 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
My opinion is that white supremacists who shoot guards doing their job is just as big an atrocity as the systematic murder of Jews by Germany.
My opinion is that killing 800-1200 Lebanese civilians is just as big a crime as the 40-50 Israeli civilians. (in 2006)
I value all human lives and all cultures. I am well aware of the poplitical statement a holocaust museum makes in the American Nation’s capital. That is because my eyes are open.
Like more and more Americans who have lived through the last eight years, I am concerned about the influence Israel and zionism exact on American domestic and foreign policy. I think this frustration can be discussed openly and in a civil manner or people can lose it like what went on today, perhaps.
If you don’t like my opinion, Safia, fine. I’m only expressing my ideas.
razib 6:45 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
i think your general questioning of the privilege which the holocaust receives in america is a serious one. but i think safia’s point is that this is not the appropriate context to bring it up.
BuzzK 6:57 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
I get it and I 80% will concede it. But…
Part of me wants to tie this act of hatred (or whatever it is) to the issue of exploiting the deaths of Jews in Germeny for an obvious political ploy.
I’ll offer another analogy. Someone loon bombs the Baghdad hilton and kills alot of Americans and Iraqis. You can choose to focus on the “terrorist” who bombed the hotel and the tragic loss of life. Or you can say, hey, what are all these Americans doing in the Baghdad Hilton that prompted this angry individual to commit murder.
I think the second question is worth asking specifically because of the tragedy.
razib 7:02 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
i think that’s a weak analogy. it is true that most white nationalists have an obsession with the holocaust and such, but that obsession tends to emerge later on in the wake of their racial “awakening,” as opposed to being the trigger. you can see sympathy for palestinians in some of the white nationalist message boards, but i think we can agree that those are crocodile tears and don’t emerge from any real preoccupation with the issues at hand.
white nationalist and anti-semitic movements existed before the holocaust. in fact they were more powerful before than after.
BuzzK 7:12 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
Strong or weak, all I was trying to say is that racists, nationalists, some kook is very likely to react to the presence of a foreign presence in their nations capital. The weakness of the analogy is primarily that American forces occupy Iraq while neocon and zionist forces are more subtle in their occupation. Still, from a certain perspective, I think the analogy holds up.
razib 7:21 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
here is why the analogy is weak. the iraqi example you gave is a tight relationship between the terrorist act and public policy. this example has no tight relationship. the holocaust and pro-israel foreign policy is one of many secondary and marginal issues of concern to the white nationalist movement. the anti-jewish fixation is because they believe that ‘zionist occupational government’ is waging a proxy war against the white race by any means necessary (e.g., colored auxiliaries, encouraging miscegenation, etc.).
so again, back to your argument with safia, i think bringing up a criticism of the holocaust museum is off topic in light of all that above.
BuzzK 7:38 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
Most of the terrorists in Iraq are foreign and have a broader agenda than ‘public policy.’ Al-Qaeda in Iraq has a list of grievances that would not look too different from a white supremacy movement. There’s crossover.
But, this is to put a huge magnifying glass on a general analogy which is the way of course to foil it. I think the magnifying glass belongs on the occurance today, however distasteful it may be.
It may be comforting to call Hamas “terrorist,” the guy today. “Supremacist” and so on….leave it at that and call anything off topic. I don’t agree.
Lawrence of Arabia 7:43 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
On what planet is a museum memoralizing the Holocaust a “foreign presence”? When did Jews (and let’s not forget gays, Poles, Romanians, the disabled, JWs etc., etc.) become un-American??
Your response is embarrassingly pathetic. A man is shot and killed and your response is to question the museum. Yes that’s right….somehow you think a memorial to mass-murder is apparently a perfectly understandable trigger for domestic terrorism and its right to exist in the U.S. a reasonable view?
BuzzK 7:54 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
I think it went over you head, Larry.
Sorry.
Lawrence of Arabia 7:59 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink
Nothing went over my head. Your response to this has been pretty despicable from start to finish so far.
You compared the attack on the museum to an attack by terrorists on foreign interests in other countries: with the clear statement following that a Holocaust museum in America is, somehow, foreign.
aziz 8:05 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
I dont understand the objection to a Holocaust museum, unless you are implying that the Holocaust is, as right-wing Israelis insist, that the Holocaust is only Jewish history and not for all of mankind.
BuzzK 7:59 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Israel not= America, but you did just prove how powerful the illusion is.
Thank you
Lawrence of Arabia 8:00 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
who said anything about Israel?
BuzzK 8:03 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Enough said. If you can’t connect the dots, can’t see how some Americans feel like they have been taken for a massive ride the last 8 years, don’t see the cost in dollars, blood and loss of influence in the world, don’t see a fricken HOLOCAUST MUSEUM IN WASHINGTON DC as a symbol of the influence….what the hell can I do with you?
Call me what you want. Your thinking skills lack a little larry.
Lawrence of Arabia 8:07 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
no doubt caused by my Anti-American, Obama-hatin’ ? *eye roll*
null 8:17 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Are you this condescending and arrogant in real life, or just on the internet?
Willow 8:46 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
It’s worth noting that second to Israel, the largest Jewish population on planet Earth is on the eastern seaboard of the US. By and large, the Jews who fled Europe after WWII and didn’t go to Israel came here. After, you know. The Holocaust.
Let’s make an analogy: there are a ton of Armenian refugees in Iran. So, surprise surprise, there is a big Armenian genocide memorial in Shiraz. Because that’s where the Armenians are.
When looking for signs of undue zionist influence this museum is probably not the most logical or prudent place to start.
johnpi 8:51 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Here’s a list of countries that have Armenian genocide memorials.
thabet 10:55 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Interesting. Didn’t know that. You really do learn something everyday.
BuzzK 11:00 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
That is a totally great analogy. I had no idea how much Iran supported Armenia or how much influence Armenia weighed on Iran.
VERY interesting
thabet 12:29 am on June 11, 2009 Permalink |
Doesn’t seem to affect certain aspects of Turkish-Iranian relations though.
aziz 10:06 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
I’m a pretty smart person but I confess that I am not intelligent enough to understand what relevance the existence of a Holocaust museum has to the past 8 years, Iraq, influence in the world, etc.
Connect the dots? backwards in time? or did the Holocaust somehow cause the Iraq war?I know youre blaming Jews for something here, but damned if I can figure out what.
oh wait – are you suggesting that neocons are all Jews, and everything the Bush Adminstration did was because Israel was pulling the strings? Because somehow a massive invasion of Iraq, regional instability, arms race with Iran, and exacerbation of the Hezbollah threat were all desirable outcomes?
BuzzK 11:01 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Cool. A smart person.
BuzzK 11:03 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Oh wait. I just read what you wrote. Oh dear.
Nevermind…
BuzzK 11:05 pm on June 10, 2009 Permalink |
Hey, the pile on has been great.
I stand by what I said, no half recap by Aziz is gonna change that.
But I will move on.