Responding to this story about French and Belgian Muslims* wanting to fight in Afghanistan, Naeem notes:
I do not doubt the US spreads disinformation (from mild forms of propaganda to outright lies). But the actions of groups like the Taliban** have been noted long before the US ever invaded Afghanistan, and long before such people were portrayed as a ‘grave threat’ to ‘the international community’ (i.e. the narrow interests of a few rich and powerful countries) by disingenuous politicians.
It is wrong to try to divorce the discussion of ‘resistance’ movements from their actual actions and political ambitions. This is like discussing liberal interventionism, which seems nice on paper, without paying attention to the evidence which helps us form a judgement as to whether such a policy is good or not, especially for those who we are told are being ‘liberated’.
So, yes, there is a general principle that people have a perfectly legitimate right to use violence and overthrow an occupation, but unless you want to tread the path of ’supporting the Taliban’***, you can’t be blind to what such groups actually do:
(And people who openly support such groups are at least more honest than those who hide behind phrases like ‘alternative narratives’… heh.)
*It is worth asking the question why the French or Belgian Muslims who are said to be offering ‘alternative narratives’ in Afghanistan did not consider offering ‘alternative narratives’ to the poor and downtrodden in their own countries, especially given many such people are also likely to be their own brothers and sisters in faith. Was it fighting oppression or the glamour of violence (and killing Americans) that was the attraction for these men?
**Granted a lot of the media stuff on this is likely to be simplistic.
***I am not sure what Naeem means by ’support’. Singing their praises on the streets of Birmingham or London, or via email lists? ‘Material support’? Or constructing ‘alternative narratives’ such as those above?

Naeem 11:34 pm on May 30, 2009 Permalink |
The narrative that I’m challenging is that of the GWOT-inspired “good vs. evil”. US forces are not pure good and Taliban are not pure evil. The former has been proven by their ineptitude and arrogance in invading Afghanistan/Iraq. The latter has been shown through their brief stint in running Afghanistan in the late 90’s.
The number you posted from the UNHCR on civilian deaths (do they have indepedent sources on the ground to verify these numbers or are they merely parroting what the US has stated?) also listed that 550 were killed by US/NATO forces. Based on these numbers, are we pushing the ‘America is evil’ narrative as much as we’re pushing the ‘Taliban is evil’ one?
I’m suggesting that we create a new space *in the GWOT discussion* where Islam isn’t always presented as violent and Muslims aren’t all barbaric and oppressive. How come when US forces bomb civilians, its a mistake, but when Taliban does so, they’re all blood-thirsty terrorists? How come when rapes and abuses take place under the watch of US forces, it doesn’t bring into question the purity of their civilized worldview, but when the Taliban close down schools, Islam becomes repressive and misogynistic?
It bothers me that we are more apt to give US forces the benefit of the doubt, and trigger happy when it comes to Muslim resistance groups.
aziz 12:23 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
Read this.
http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm
I have nothing more to add to it – and theres only one conclusion you can and should draw from it.
BuzzK 9:17 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
USA had every right and international charter to invade Afghanistan. There are consequences when you kill thousands of innocent civilians.
EVEN FOR NON-AMERICANS.
All the other stuff 2001-2008 is shit we Americans are just gonna have to swallow and all the damage and disgrace that comes with it.
Invading Afghanistan was completely justified.
As for a “failing strategy” in Afganistan….we shall see.
TI would be a good new home for Baghdad Bob.
Remember him?
thabet 2:06 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink |
But not if you’re an American who bombs Iraqi or Afghan civilians.
BuzzK 2:11 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink |
zzzzzz.
thabet 2:23 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink
Yes, of course. The deaths of Iraqi or Afghan civilians are boring and shouldn’t be brought up, especially when a Democrat is president.
BuzzK 2:28 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink
Yeah, sure.
Mr. Justice.
Or is it Mr. Bullshit?
I can’t tell
thabet 2:30 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink |
Let’s see those words again:
BuzzK 2:48 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink
Are you blind?
There are lots of hacks who want to take part of a thought or part of a story or a post and crudely shape it into something that approximates their political BS.
There are lots of people on blogs that want to mete out one-sided justice. They talk about how one side is really bad and leave off the details on their side.
Palestinians are oppressed. Israelis are terrorized. Everyone is the victim. No one accepts blame. Longer it goes, the worse it gets.
America has blundered badly for the last 8 years. Civilians have died. Unnecessary war has been waged. Sure. America has done bad things previously. And some great things.
PLEASE show me that shangri-la nation that is a stainless and a benefit to all, harm to none. The UK? India? China? Even Costa Rica and Switzerland predate. There are no absolutes which is the BS position is predicated on. Or you just express yourself very badly.
In any case, justice is a balance. An equation. Not myopia. Myopia is the problem.
Example: Instead of hounding the tragic deaths of Iraqi and Afghanis, a one-sided position which sounds like you hold no value for American lives lost, someone could suggest how the taliban should have been dealt with post 9/11.
Someone could even suggest what the Taliban should have done instead of 9/11. They have grievances. Suggest something civilized.
I am glad I am getting on your nerves thabet. You clearly show your hate-filled irrational rage in this state. And it is certainly not new. It was the impression I’ve had of you for years.
Not a great thinker.
null 2:55 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink
All this s3xual tension is making me uncomfortable. Get a room.
thabet 3:48 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink
I am talking of accountability, a supposed pillar of liberal democracy.
Who is accountable for illegal invasions which have cost lives and vast sums of money (you should be furious at those perpetrating fraud with your money)?
In the UK, I would like people who partook in this illegal invasion to be brought to justice.
Heh. Someone has to I suppose.
The US had every right to go after the people who carried out the 9/11 attacks. Did you not read where I said the US “pissed away all the good will it had”? Clearly, this means I think they had good will in order to piss it away and, therefore, support to invade Afghanistan (Muslims who oppose this are deluding themselves).
What do you believe the ‘end game’ in Afghanistan is? Kill all Taliban? Good luck with that, especially when any man with a beard and gun is labelled ‘Taliban’.
The sad, unfortunate, fact is the US (like French-speaking wannabe jihadis — please see my post) are finding themselves caught up in a local, regional, conflict and seem to me merely fighting on one side against the other (do not tell me the warlords in the NA are any less horrible or brutal than the Taliban).
Read up on the investigations carried out in a 2006 documentary (and recent NYT reports) which show how arms meant for the Afghan army are ending up in the hands of ‘insurgents’. How do you think that happened? Magic?
Rather than read up on these issues and understand this is a conflict outsiders are best to leave well alone, you decided that you would prefer to paint me as ‘anti-American’ and then go into long lengthy nonsense about the greatness of Obama, when the man has done nothing of substance. People are still being held in torture dungeons (including minors). People are still dying of ‘apparent suicides’ in Guantanamo. People can still be subjected to ‘rendition’ (kidnapping). And so on and so forth.
I am sure he means a lot to you. I am sure he means a lot to many Americans. But he doesn’t mean anything to me. He is not my ’symbol’ against racism or inequality or oppression. Thanks.
As I said, please ‘tell me so’ when these things change. I will happily admit I was wrong.
thabet 4:05 am on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
Sorry Naeem, this comment was missed in the deluge…
You write:
Ok, fine. I can agree with this. The US, just like French-speaking North Africans from Western Europe, are gradually becoming more and more enmeshed in regional, local, ethnic rivalry of which they have as much understanding as Americans who believe this is “Good ” versus “Evil”.
Ah, yes. The UN only “parrots” what the US says when it suits you (unlike, say, when it comes Israel perhaps?). What’s an ‘independent’ source to you? Mullah Omar?
And where did I minimise the US killing of civilians?
Again, fine. I don’t disagree with this specific point. You can do this without skirting over the crimes of ‘Muslim groups’.
Please do me a favour and stop assuming I am a. an American or b. support the US occupation of Afghanistan. I do not. And please look through the archives on here: you won’t find people shying away from criticising American bombing of Afghan civilians, or for the grand claims of bringing Civilisation. It’s just, unlike you, most on here have also attacked so-called ‘resistance’ movements.
And I notice you skirted right around the evidence collected, pre-war, about Taliban atrocities. Why is that?
Please keep your straw men at home.
Willow 12:12 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
When I hear Naeem’s pro-Taliban argument from a woman–because I never have in my life–I’ll give it a little more thought. Right now it just looks like a man failing to recognize radical misogyny in others because he fails to recognize it in himself. Common and unremarkable, sadly.
null 6:49 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
For pro-Taliban arguments from a woman, check out Rabiah Hutchinson – Australia’s ‘grande dame of terror’.
Dan 8:31 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
Why does Naeem continue to live in the West if he is such a staunch supporter of the Taliban?
He’s better off posting on IslamicAwakening with the rest of his Taliban buddies of his. I can’t stand people like Naeem, who are fooled by illiterate village idiots who profess to be spreading the message of the Almighty.
And Naeem, what do you have to say about your Taliban heroes beheading Shi’aa in Parachinar? Let’s see your excuse for this. Link is graphic btw.
Null, that woman is seen as a laughing stock by a majority of Australian Muslims. She’s a fringe idiot who has no support whatsoever.
null 9:14 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
I didn’t say otherwise. Only that there are women who support(ed) the Taliban. Furthermore, unlike any of us (I presume), Rabiah Hutchinson actually lived among them and has first hand account of what life was like.
The story she tells is very romantic – families ‘getting back to basics’ and living simply to please God. A tight knit community with a shared purpose, where everyone was friendly and welcome and safe.
It’s a hard to take her version of events seriously when everyone knows the the gross human rights violations that occurred.
But it’s also weak to dismiss it completely as the words of some laughing stock. She’s an oddity, but she’s not an idiot.
Dan 10:50 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
Irfan Yusuf issued a scathing critique when ABC’s Jihad Sheilas aired early last year. It was well deserved IMO.
The women who supported the Taliban are the same ones who think Shi’a Hazaras are kaffir and deserved to be slaughtered for being scum. There is a female poster on MuslimVillage that goes by the screen name “Talibah_Princess” who expressed her full support for the Taliban and supported the slaughter of Shi’a Hazaras because she claimed that Hazaras are sleazy kaffir “dogs”. She also vocally supported Shamil Basayev and justified the siege of Beslan in 2004. Ironic thing? She lives in Melbourne, and is a Tatar.
Muse 10:00 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
I think he lives in Jeddah
thabet 1:17 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink |
His blog says he is an American Pakistan living in Saudi.
razib 2:11 am on June 8, 2009 Permalink |
awesome! more power to the brother
he should stay there forever!
razib 9:18 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
The story she tells is very romantic – families ‘getting back to basics’ and living simply to please God. A tight knit community with a shared purpose, where everyone was friendly and welcome and safe.
which begs the question why she would leave them and come back to the den of iniquity?
null 9:25 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
From memory, she’s a security risk the authorities won’t let her leave the country.
razib 9:40 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
they won’t let her leave oz? ok. but why did she come back in the first place.
null 10:01 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
She was in Iran for a time after escaping Afghanistan, in 2003. She was told by the Australian embassy there to return to Australia, or she would be without documents.
She’s been trying to get back to Afghanistan to be with her children and grandchildren.
razib 10:03 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink
ah, ok. thanks.
razib 10:05 pm on June 7, 2009 Permalink |
and i prolly should have googled her. sorry about buggin’