I just came across, via Andrew Sullivan links to a couple of posts by Hussein Rashid. One was a Muslim statement against torture, which was signed by several TI bloggers. That’s all well and good. I am for any statement against torture.
Unfortunately, the other post, to which the torture statement was said to be a response, was an ignorant and nonsensical claim that American Muslims had been silent about torture. It is both unfortunate that Mr. Rashid is so detached from the Muslim community he hadn’t heard any of the previous statements against torture, it is sad that he couldn’t be troubled to use google or simply pay a visit to ISNA’s website before making such a claim, and it is troubling that someone like Andrew Sullivan (whom I admire a great deal) picked up such information and ran with it, publicizing such an unjust smear against the Muslim community to his deservedly wide readership.
I don’t have time to google all the organizations who have made statements against torture, but suffice it to say that ISNA, the largest Muslim umbrella organization in America, was a founding member of the National Religious Campaign to End Torture in 2006 and numerous other Muslim orgs are endorsers or participants in that campaign and have been for years. There have been letter writing campaigns, newspaper advertisments and national days of action. There are individuals and orgs here in Chicago who have been organizing and holding events against torture for a decade or more, working together with Muslims and Muslim organizations as well as non-Muslims. CAIR and MAS Freedom have had different campaigns and action alerts against torture for years.
Again, a New statement against torture is all well and good. But I am disturbed by the tendency manifested here of small isolated pockets of the blogosphere to make false claims about the rest of the community in ignorance and self-importantly claim that they are somehow uniquely virtuous amongst Muslims.
aziz 9:25 am on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
I ask this because I honestly don’t know – were previous statements against torture, against torture per se as a principle, or primarily reacting to the torture of muslims? Theres a difference between saying “hey we are being victimized by X” and saying “X is an absolute wrong no matter what”
I dont need to speak for HR but I understood his post was largely motivated not by Gitmo but by the Emirati royal family member who tortured a poor afghan man nearly to death.
aziz 9:28 am on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
btw this was I think the key point of the other piece:
That’s a point worth discussing in its own right.
bdr 10:57 am on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
But I am disturbed by the tendency manifested here of small isolated pockets of the blogosphere to make false claims about the rest of the community in ignorance and self-importantly claim that they are somehow uniquely virtuous amongst Muslims.
thabet 11:45 pm on May 9, 2009 Permalink |
Examples?
abunoor 11:02 am on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
Aziz,
Those statements and actions were against torture in principle. In some instances there were probably specific cases that motivated the organizations and individuals, in others not. You claim that HR was motivated by a specific case that was no where mentioned in his post.
I really should avoid a discussion on this point, because the more I think about Mr. Rashid’s original post, the more angry I become. We can constantly complain about Islamophobes spreading lies that Muslims don’t speak against this or that but then Muslims do the exact same thing and most of us are silent.
I am more than happy to have a critical discussion about National Muslim orgs, I have many criticisms of each of them. But such a discussion is not helpful with people who are ignorant of those organizations, do not take even the most minimal effort to research or inform themselves about those organizations and who therefore make false and inflammatory statements about them which end up getting widely spread.
There is no possible reason for any American Muslim organization not to speak out against torture in principle and this is affirmed by the fact that all of them have taken many opportunities to do so in the past…yet there is now a widespread perception spread on one of the most popular blogs that Muslim orgs have been “silent about torture,” a bizarre and ridiculous claim which can be traced directly to Mr. Rashid.
Allaahul – Musta’an.
Willow 12:00 pm on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
Can you provide a few links to statements other national muslim orgs have made against torture? I believe you, but I think we need specifics if we’re going to continue the discussion.
It’s worth noting that on the international stage, the ulema are usually pretty quiet about torture. Not because they believe it’s Islamically acceptable, but because they live under regimes that openly practice torture, and they know quite well which side their bread is buttered on.
spring 12:09 pm on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
I’m confused. Hasn’t Mr. Rashid posted entries on this site? According to this website he is user ‘islamoyankee’. I’m sure he can answer your criticisms directly.
islamoyankee 9:53 pm on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
Salaams all,
@spring I am here, but was in a conference all day and then travel. My apologies for the delayed response.
@AbuNoor we’ve had disagreements on this forum before, but the one thing I’ve always appreciated is that it was always about ideas, never about the people. While I am sorry to have upset you so, I do not understand your need to resort to ad hominem. What is your basis for assuming I am “detached” from the community? Are you aware of all my work for the community? The due diligence I did before writing the article? The direct and indirect contacts I made to every organization I implicitly mention? If so, it seems disingenuous for you not to include that in your article. If you are not, than it seems that you are doing what you are accusing me of, not doing the background. Are you also accusing the signatories of being detached from the community? The statement was release with almost a dozen signatories, and you’ll see more have signed on to it. Or are you implying I duped all of these individuals? I did not do this as an individual trying be more “virtuous” but as someone who wanted a response and was not getting it.
Aziz is right, the original piece was written in response to a specific incident, one that I start the essay with, the release of the “torture memos.” Although he gets the incident wrong, I think he quotes the most relevant part of the critique, which is what is the American language being used. We now have proof from the government that we tortured. A statement in principle is fine, but in my mind this required a specific response. You’ll see the original post was over a week after the memos were released, during which time I contacted our organizations for information. The statement came out almost two weeks later, as I tried to get support from our organizations. The only group that can take me to task is Muslim Advocates for whom I was not as aggressive as I was with the other groups.
If you can show me that any of our national organizations had statements on the “torture memos” before I wrote my first post, I will publicly apologize and ask Andrew Sullivan to post it.
Today MPAC signed the statement and issued their own statement on the question of torture. Are they also detached? ASMA has not and will not address the issue. I am well aware of ISNA’s involvement with National Religious Campaign, which is what makes their lack of link to the NRCAT statement on the issue surprising, nor have they issued anything in their own name or on behalf of the Muslim-American community. CAIR had not issued a statement at the time of my first post.
You may not appreciate Andrew Sullivan’s phrasing, but do not impugn my connection to my faith community or assume my background is incomplete without having some time to Google yourself because of it.
Zack 11:40 pm on May 8, 2009 Permalink |
Why do we need a “Muslim community” response to torture?
jay kactuz 1:09 am on May 16, 2009 Permalink |
Once again we see the usual hypocrisy from the Muslim community. Since when do Muslims care about torture? Or does it depend on who is doing it? Perhaps you should read your own sacred writings. Maybe cutting off fingertips, limbs, crucifixion, burning eyes or pouring boiling water over a person’s head is not really torture. Yes, American Muslims had been silent about torture, especially some torture.
Abu Noor 1:24 pm on May 16, 2009 Permalink |
Mr. Rashid,
This is what you said in your blog post:
This is nothing but an absolutely false slander against those organizations. By saying you appeared detached from the community, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that that was preferable to the notion that you were knowingly lying.
Abu Noor 3:18 pm on May 16, 2009 Permalink |
Mr. Rashid,
I do not desire to create a bad feeling between us, especially since I agree with you in opposing torture.
I apologize for the ad hominem nature of my statement, I should have just stated why I was so disturbed by your post and its effect, without launching into any other type of rhetoric. Again, I apologize.
I encourage you to re read your blog post as I’m still not sure you realize that the way it is written does not reflect what it appears you meant. Also, this is not just a problem with my understanding, but I think you can tell even from this discussion that many others misunderstood what you were trying to say (I take it you were trying to say that no Muslim organization had commented publicly on the release of the torture memos but you stated no Muslim organization had condemned torture.) I and many others read your post as written, while some others may have understood your meaning.
But I do think what you actually said in your blog post, as opposed to what you may have intended, was false and resulted in harm to the community, and it does bother me a great deal. Of course, I cannot be as bothered by an unintentional miscommunication but the harm and the insult to all those Muslims who have worked tirelessly against torture for years is still real.