Imagine a delighted South Asian Muslim family receiving a marriage proposal from a promising recent med-school grad for the hand of their attractive, young daughter in marriage.
In reality, the doctor is gay, the daughter is lesbian, and the two of them have found each other through the Internet to arrange a marriage of convenience. The two will go on to live communally with their respective lovers in the same house. “I get married to a lesbian, we sleep in different rooms, and remain friends. Meanwhile I can have a boyfriend.”
Here’s a short film that illustrates the scenario above. The film asserts that there are hundreds of gay Muslims in America today living in such MOC marriages – maybe even a seemingly heterosexual couple you know.
Interestingly, the narrative of the girl refers to how she grew up mostly completely separated from boys in the Muslim way and so grew close to her girlfirends, until one became her girlfriend – implying that the Islamic norm of strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection. Recently, Umar, in his response to Yusuf Smith, referenced stories of homosexual behavior at Islamic madrassas, which again point to the possibility that strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection.
Regarding MOCs, if we leave aside the question of whether God is happy, everybody else is. The community’s norms are not overturned, the extended family doesn’t have to “suffer” social repercussions to their fragile honor, no one has been murdered, no heterosexual winds up unknowingly married to a homosexual, and the guy gets the girl in the end. No wait…
Muse 12:36 am on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Except the couple who has to live a lie.
razib 12:38 am on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Recently, Umar, in his response to Yusuf Smith, referenced stories of homosexual behavior at Islamic madrassas, which again point to the possibility that strict sex segregation fosters homosexual connection.
there’s a difference between those who engage in homosexual acts to “release” their impulses in sex-segregated situations (some muslim cultures, prisons, religious communities, ancient athens, etc.) and obligate homosexuals. i am very skeptical that the men who engage in homosexual acts in a sex segregated circumstance ever “learn” to prefer same sex relationships. the situation maybe different for women, for whom there is more of a balance between physical and emotional aspects. i know of many straight women who have experimented with lesbianism, very few straight men.
PI.info 8:16 am on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Muse – I used to think as you do, but after having watched the conservative Republican party over these past 8 years and the constellation of gays that have served in high places in support of conservative values, I no longer believe “living a lie” is a problem for some. All of those people had a choice in this country about where to invest their political energy, and they chose a party that stands against them in every way (except for the libertarians). I can only speculate on this, but perhaps some people love tradition and traditional values more than they love integrity, and that may be just as true of the gay Muslim community.
PI.info 8:30 am on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Razib – Do you then agree that sex segregation fosters homosexual behavior if not homosexuality? Also, perhaps not all homosexuals are “born” that way. Maybe early experiences result in identity formation. Recently I excerpted an article on recovery from male rape written by a therapist:
If a person has a belief about his or herself and acts on it, it becomes true because it is believed. The more acts and interactions, the more “confirmed” the belief becomes. The person may not have been born homosexual, but acts and behavior has reinforced what was initially an erroneous belief and made it the reality.
razib 11:50 am on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Razib – Do you then agree that sex segregation fosters homosexual behavior if not homosexuality? Also, perhaps not all homosexuals are “born” that way. Maybe early experiences result in identity formation. Recently I excerpted an article on recovery from male rape written by a therapist:
yes and yes. in the first example, i know gay american men who love the fact that many men from muslim societies are already experienced with homosexual sex, so paying them to take the “dominant” position if they’re in need of money for sex is totally possible. as long as it’s kept quiet
many gay men enjoy the fantasy of having sex with straight men, and men from ‘traditional’ cultures are obviously a better bet than american men who expected to have sex with women during their formative years.
for your second point, extreme situations can cause psychological changes. but obviously i doubt most males are homosexual due to male rape. even the higher than typical sexual abuse rates of course might have to due to the particular vulnerability of homosexual boys and the closeted nature of adult homosexual males. i guess we have a causal conundrum here. that being said, from what i know of ex-prisoners (i have known some in the past), their homosexual experiences (including traumatic rapes) don’t turn them gay once they get out. so perhaps it is different for kids.
PI.info 2:43 pm on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
I agree that male rape probably does not account for any significant number of gays in the population. I was more looking toward the insight that some portion of the gay population comes from nature, some from nurture.
Islam purports to discourage/oppose homosexuality, yet it creates situations that nurture same gender attraction (as described in the narrative of the girl in the short film). Having said that, I don’t even think gays on the “nurture” side of the equation “choose.” Powerful positive feedback loops are create in the social environment that turn some to the same gender for connection, emotional, and eventually for some, sexual sustenance, which is why an examination of how we structure society makes sense on this issue.
Islam could better align with its own values concerning homosexuality by reforming the maladaptive social norms of sex segregation that foster male-female alienation and same gender attraction.
There is an implicit value judgment in what I’m saying – that heterosexuality is better than homosexuality – but I gather from the responses of gays to those who accuse them of “choosing” their preference is that most gays wouldn’t wish the difficulties of being (born?) gay onto anyone, and if they could have a gender attraction transplant they would, but there’s no such thing.
razib 5:23 pm on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Powerful positive feedback loops are create in the social environment that turn some to the same gender for connection, emotional, and eventually for some, sexual sustenance, which is why an examination of how we structure society makes sense on this issue./i>
agreed. i think these people are re-habilitable toward their normal orientation. you can distinguish born from made gays probably by physiology (gay men have somewhat different brain structures than straight men).
Islam could better align with its own values concerning homosexuality by reforming the maladaptive social norms of sex segregation that foster male-female alienation and same gender attraction.
it’s not really islam, it’s economics. if people got married at 15 like they used to this wouldn’t be an issue. but if you have a society where men have to put off getting married until their 30s because they need to find a “good job” to support a family, no surprise that they start having sex with gay filipinos in lieu of ladies in their 20s
PI.info 6:03 pm on January 27, 2009 Permalink |
Wow…an economics-based theory of homosexuality…even Marx didn’t do that. Very cool…
Despair 4:54 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink |
I don’t know what to say except that I am gay and I am muslim and all what tears me apart is how alot of people get to claim about why/if I am gay by choice or not and am I messed up or not, and how difficult it is to think of what kind of life am I supposed to lead.
Someone said something about throwing integrity and doing it for traditions sake..well sadly I cant seperate religion from integrity unlike how alot of people see that religion is something you do to not disturb the society around you, I do it because I believe in it, and being gay has caused to me question islam and life so hard that now I know for sure islam is the right way, but yet understand what it means to tolerate and how to be spiritual rather than traditional.
The only missing part..I cant aspire to life anymore…I dont fit with anything cause I am gay(attractions are not expressed infact disgusted of, and I have different than the norm guy interests)..I cant trust, I cant satisfy the people around me..I am too weird, and most of all with no will to live at all…for I dont want to disturb society but at the same time I dont want to loose my identity/integrity…Help..
Despair 4:57 pm on November 6, 2009 Permalink |
Oh and just fyi, I had quiet a physically abusive father, who vented his rage often, and I lived with my aunts for quiet sometime…as my parents were always not around..
just giving a suggestion of what maybe went wrong..
HOMOPHOBE 10:33 pm on December 14, 2009 Permalink |
YOU FUCKIN JEW, STOP BULLSHITTING ABOUT ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY, I AM A CHRISTIAN MYSELF, AND I KNOW THERE IS NO WAY FOR HOMOSEXUALITY TO BE OKAY IN BOTH ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY