Hirabahwatch: Al Qaeda was planning an attack upon pilgrims at Hajj.
To people who are profane, nothing is sacred.
Islam News @ NYT- Driving Miss Saudi: Young women in Riyadh try to balance Islam and modernity as the stunted desert kingdom makes progress in “Saudi Time.”
- Women’s Rights in Mideast:
- A Dispute on Using the Koran as a Path to Jesus: “The Camel Method” for preaching to Muslims has prompted controversy among Southern Baptists.
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PI.info 9:46 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
A question: Is self-defense against the indiscriminate violence of others who claim to be Muslim de facto takfir?
Does a Muslim who supports US military (or other Western governments) efforts to engage such people with potentially deadly force avoid the proscription against Muslims making war on other Muslims?
aziz 9:47 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Is there such a proscription? (for genuine war, not hirabah)
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 10:30 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Aziz, what the heck is ‘genuine war’? In general, yes of course there is a proscription on fighting against other Muslims, and yes like almost every proscription I can think of there are exceptions.
Again, trying to defend Al-Qa’ida is a no-win situation, but I wouldn’t be so quick to believe or take the side of the Sa’udi government without knowing the real facts either.
PI.info 10:56 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Abu pegged it. Isn’t war without just cause – for reasons of malice or personal gain – murder? Also, God is awfully mad at the Israelites for slaying and attacking each other in groups at 2:85 (war being a group activity).
aziz 11:25 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Abu, thats a proscription against murdering muslims. But there is a well-establshed doctrine of just war in Islam (just as there is in Christianity) and given that the Ummah is not a single unit (nor should it be) you can legitimately have a situation where two muslim nations are at war. Iraq and Iran come to mind from recent history. Likewise, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Malysia, etc all are states that have targeted and killed muslims (terrorists). Should a terrorist walk free because he says the shahada? obviously not.
the proscription is aainst unlawful killig of your broither in faith but you could argue that the reference in the qr’an is hardly limited to muslims alone. In fact its a general statement of do not kill unjustly (but killing a fellow muslim is even worse).
To argue that muslims shouldnt fight other muslims in a general sense is to argue a hypothetical. it makes sense in a Prophet SAW era, Meccan community sense, but is kind of meaningless in this modern age of modern nation-states.
aziz 11:26 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
(PI.info – i’d like to ask you to remove your repost of my post. See my comment at City of Brass)
abunoor 11:34 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Aziz,
Yes there are situations in which fighting in wars or engaging in police actions against Muslims can be legitimate.
No, no, and a million times NO does the fact that the leader of your nation state whether it is George W. Bush, Saddam Hussein, or Asif Zardari order you to fight in a war does it necessarily make that war legitimate in the sight of God.
Religion in the best and truest sense is a check and a challenge on worldly authority, not a rubber stamp approval of it.
aziz 11:55 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
abu i think we are arguing about two different things. A muslim nation may go to war with any nation, even another muslim one, for reasons that have nothing to do with islam or religion or jihad. Though in practice of ocurse they probably will invoke the faith anyway. What does God’s judgement have to do with that? Its simply geopolitics, and patriotism, and nationalism, and politics. In other words, war. Note that you assume that muslims will only fight other muslims on order, but in fact usually muslims dont need to be told to do that. examples: iraq-iran, Iraq-kuwait, Darfur, Somalia, and pretty much everything every Islamic empire did from the Abbasids to the Ottomans.
Al Qaeda attacking muslims on Hajj is the issue here, so I am actually a little confused how we ended on this track.
atually, its PI’s question above:
to which I would answer, unequivocally yes, such a muslim does indeed avoid that proscription. Its a no-brainer. Al Qaeda can call itself muslim if it wants to, but its they who are violating the proscription in the most literal sense. And the qur’an is quite clear indeed about what the fate of muharib should be.
PI.info 11:59 am on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Done. I excerpted the original article and extended your invitation to my readers to come to beliefnet for discussion.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 12:22 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Aziz, to say ‘unequivocally’ yes is a big mistake, ya akhee. Regardless of what one thinks of the U.S. GWOT in general, there are countless examplese where in specific it has been a war of agression, a war of oppression, and one of killing, kidnapping, imprisoning, and torturing absolutely innocent Muslims.
For all who have contributed to that effort in any way, even those of us who simply live in this country and have not done enough to stop it will be a great darkness for us on the Day of Judgement. Certainly, it is not legitimate for a Muslim to join with such an entity as the U.S. government in addressing such issues. To the extent, we in the Ummah have a problem with violent extremists, we must seek our own solutions, just like we must seek our own solutions to all the other problems facing us, including ones that are much more of a problem than the extremists like the oppressive U.S. allied regimes which rule over us. We must not support THulum in the name of doing good.
And Allaah Knows Best.
PI.info 2:47 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Abu, if we could tear the current policy down to the ground and start over from first principles, am I mistaken or didn’t God tell the prophet (pbuh) that it was permissible for Muslims to make common cause with non-Muslims in pursuit of the good?
I ask because I’m wondering if you think there is any permissible way US Muslims can partner with non-Muslim US citizens to utilize state resources to deal with this.
Also, I’ve occasionally heard and often read about Muslims who refuse to vote because to participate in Democracy is shirk. But it seems ridiculous to me that one would avoid shirk by not voting but still pay your taxes with no consequence to your soul. It can be convincingly argued (I think) that one is even more culpable when you own the weapons and infrastructure as a taxpaying American.
So in short, I’m interested in your thoughts on
Muslim/non-Muslim common military campaigns – especially when you own the weapons and training through your taxes.
Voting as shirk, but taxpaying as unremarkable.
It seems to me that by paying your taxes you obligate yourself to throw yourself completely into political life to try your hardest to ensure that the thing you own isn’t used for evil.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 3:13 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
P.I. Info, The U.S. military, regardless of the contribution of some Muslims’ tax dollars and even the presence of some Muslims in its ranks, is a non-Muslim force. Not only is it non-Muslim, but at this stage in history, it is essentially hostile to Islam. I do not claim that it necessarily has to be this way, but it is unlikely to change anytime soon. I know some may disagree but to be honest this doesn’t make me doubt this contention in the least.
So, working with other U.S. citizens for good, maShaAllah. Working with the U.S. military…do something else. If you really want to harness, as you call it, state resources, then band together with non-Muslims to encourage the U.S. to decrease its spending on the military and increase aid for sustainable development among the worlds poorest people.
I agree taxpaying should not be viewed as unremarkable. First, I believe Muslims and all people in this country of goodwill and decency should do whatever they can to avoid paying any federal taxes as long as the U.S. spends such an obscene amount on the military and engages in unjust wars and foreign occupations. To be honest, especially if you have children, you have to be pretty wealthy to pay federal taxes. (I know many Muslims are pretty wealthy, many of us, however, are not). Those who do should consider withholding taxes as a protest.
The argument of those who consider voting to be shirk but allow the paying of taxes is that voting is a voluntary action while paying taxes is done under coercion.
I do not agree that voting is per se shirk but I do think voting is usually either counterproductive or pointless, and that involvement in electoral politics by a community that has not really thought out bigger issues of what is its place in this society and its mission in life is problematic for a lot of different reasons.
Allaah knows best.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee 3:19 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
By the way, I know the issue of who pays federal taxes is more complicated than I make out above, but I essentially stand by my statement. Many people who are not wealthy pay payroll taxes, which in theory go to fund social security but in reality all the money is mixed together.
Tariq Nelson 3:23 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
I can’t say that I am surprised by the report either – especially since they were caught a couple of years ago planning attack on Hajj pilgrims
PI.info 3:32 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
…paying of taxes is that voting is a voluntary action while paying taxes is done under coercion.
I’m recalling that there were Catholic Vietnam War protesters in the 1960s who took vows of poverty in order to legally avoid paying taxes. Probably not many Muslims in the US right now willing to take vows of poverty – entrepreneurs and wealthy life-lovers that so many of us are. And your stock in the marriage market would go WAY down…just imagine the horrified Aunties!
Some of those people weren’t afraid to stick out like a sore thumb and practice civil disobedience and protest against the unjust aspects of the American system. It may be useful at some point for a Muslim journalist or blogger to review the history of that movement, inshallah.
aziz 7:23 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Abu Noor,
It is perfectly valid to be a loyal citizen of your nation, a devout muslim, and a supporter of the need for a war on terror, AND a fierce critic of the specific way that war is being carried out.
Yes, Allah knows best, but I don’t think my position is one to be embarrassed of, nor warranting a black mark on the day of Judgement. After all, I exercised my vote and voted for the man who promised to end torture, close Guantanamo, and reorient the war towards Afghanistan.
Ifthe choices are, wage an imperfect war on terror , or wage none, then regretfully I choose the former. My regret is not that innocent muslims may be killed, it is that innocents may be killed, and the proscription against killing muslims is essentially irrelevant to this. It is morally incumbent upon us to articulate our moral values within the system and change it from within. Thats a responsibility and privilege that we as citizens of a democracy have, and we abdicate that responsibility by not voting.
Abstaining from taxes is not a protest, it is hypocrisy, because as a citizen you enjoy the benefits that the taxes everyone else pays. You drive on roads, you drink clean water, you send yoru children to school. Either you pay your share or you are a parasite upon society. If in your assessment being a citizen of the US makes you complicit in the murder of innocent muslims, then that is a legitimate view I can respect but disagree forcefully with; but such a view obligates you to renounce American citizenship entirely. Thats really the only intellectually honest action you can take if you genuinely believe you are culpable.
(thank you btw – this is a fantastic debate we are having and I am enjoying it immensely. I am going to link it from COB).
PI.info 8:09 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
Aziz, I’m attracted to the moral clarity of your statement, but money is not the only coin of the realm. A person could differentiate his/herself from a parasite by returning wealth to the community in charity and service.
I know of an order of Dominican sisters who live in a nearby town who take a vow of poverty as part of their entry into their order. They are organized as a nonprofit and pay no personal taxes. They exist on charity.
The difference between them and parasites though is that they give service to the community: they volunteer in a women’s shelter, run education programs, health programs, offer meditation retreats, women’s groups, political advocacy (how I know them), hold interfaith spiritual gatherings – and no one is ever excluded so they really do return at least as much to the civil society as they take out.
aziz 9:51 pm on December 17, 2008 Permalink |
if they dedicated their lives to it, as the nuns you describe do, then that would indeed be sufficient. But I dont think we are suggesting that all muslims who chooose to reside in the US enter a life dedicated to charitable service.
You’d need to devote yoru entire life to that sort of service to really make a meaningful contribution equivalent to what benefits you derive. In fact, those benefits are heavily subsidized as it is; your taxes are *not* your fair share of the cost.
PI.info 1:17 pm on December 21, 2008 Permalink |
Saudi Interior minister implies report of Al Qaeda Hajj attack was hoax of a right-wing newspaper
From the Arab News:
Not that I have a problem with dissing Al Qaeda, but I don’t want to be tricked into carrying anybody’s propaganda. The Middle East Times is an organ of the far-right-wing Unification Church, and I don’t take anything it publishes as accurate unless I can second-source it somewhere else more credible.
Here’s a choice morsel of information to keep in mind when you’re perusing the Middle East Times: