I understand what you mean, and I agree with you. But what I don’t understand is that if someone doesn’t make any personal attacks on you, then why in the world would you make personal attacks and insults against them?

I personally believe Apostate should have a right to believe in whatever she believes. She may criticize Islam and Muslim women all she wants, but every mature and considerate human being knows that you can’t make false assumptions and accusations towards someone when you don’t even know them.

You can’t deny the experiences that a person has with a religion just because you don’t believe in it. The majority of Muslims find peace and beauty in Islam — it is a source of strength, Love, and wisdom for them. I have friends who have left Islam, and they are living their lives peacefully and happily, they even still have Muslim friends. They don’t devote their time spreading hatred about it.

To each their own. Let people ~Be~. There are religious extremists in every gorup.

Happiness and Peace never hurt anyone.

That’s what the educated call a generalization. Look at flaws within other groups, but not within your own, that’s how it works, right? Look at the labels and not the individuals?

It’s creepy.

heh. That’s our goal: to nice everyone to death.

BK in principle I agree with your point 1, I just took issue with the way you expressed it as an attack earlier. I think that there’s certainly some irony in a woman choosing to express her freedom from misogyny by donning a bikini. Not that I’m particularly inclined to discourage her in any way from doing so.

In fact I am curious what Apostate would make of that old essay of mine about burkas and bikinis…

There are some interesting take-aways from this whole mélange:

1. Feminism needs to be better understood. Muse made the point interesting. I was merely pointing out that Apostate and APG, two Pakistani women who aggressively reject Islam appear to partially express the rejection by asserting sexual freedom. Some would call that a valid expression of their point. I would call it off the mark. A reaction to misogyny masquerading as Islam. Further, outing ones sexuality as an expression of emacipation from male dominated sexual society seems confused to me. An abberation.

Whatever.

2. Islam is what people do. This makes the revelation of Islam and the idea of a pure and perfect revelation somewhat relative. “Submission to Allah” can mean different things to different people. Some express that by charity and humility. Others by blowing up buildings and themselves. All equally valid?

Hardly.

This is one of the compelling problems that Muslims must face. There is a loss of standard. One can easily say that honor killings and FGM are supported or refuted by Islam with some effort. There are no clear standards because Muslims don’t rigorously enforce standards without becoming subservient to dogma.

This should also be discussed and resolved among atleast a larger number of devotees to religion.

Ayan Hirsi Ali does not speak for MY Islam.

But as I agree with you,I am…

…go..went..gone.

Isn’t it obvious that you do?

Thanks again for your civility.