willow
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03:47:46 pm on July 6, 2008 | # | |
I’ve been blogsurfing the other side recently (and wherever I go, Muse has stepped in to mediate the fray–I suggest adding a Best Diplomat award to the BCs), and came across this post at The Apostate, one of the few genuinely eloquent and persuasive ex-Muslim blogs out there. I’m in a minority of white converts who believe that sometimes the best thing a white convert can do is sit down, shut up and let other people do the talking, which is why I don’t comment on things like honor killing. (Being from a middle class white American family, honor killing hasn’t ever been and won’t ever be a factor in my life experience, so it’s unfair for me to comment on the role it has played in the experiences of others.) However, it’s an interesting and disturbing discussion of the interplay between misogyny and Islam, which has, I think, some real intellectual merit.
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BK 5:38 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
This apostate is just as much of a mind-f*ck as the other apostate (APG). What is the deal with the Apostate muslim girls and the sex?
They are as eager to expose their bodies as they are to exposing their ignorance. “I reject Islam, and these are my tits.”
Who the hell cares?
Her message is hollow as a fundamentalist. A load of empty assertions and half truths.
I have nothing against apostates or atheists or agnostics. Actually, agnosticism might be the most honest religion. How many people really see what they worship?
Show me one non-militant apostate and I will happily read. The batch I’ve seen are trashy nimrods.
willow 6:38 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
I’m not sure I’d conflate angry with trashy. Can we really blame people who have had a terrible, terrible experience with Islam for leaving and then getting volubly upset about it? How useful is it to tell a victim of abuse to shut up about it because it’s embarrassing?
There definitely are trashy apostate blogs out there (in fact, trashy blogs out there…on the internet as in life the trashy element seems to win out over sane useful and entertaining as often as not). But I wouldn’t class this one among them. She’s not lewd or exhibitionist. She’s not out to make money off of racists by catering to their fantasies about Scary Brown People. She’s just royally pissed off.
ERS 7:15 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
There is something about the anonymity of the Internet that coarsens some discussions, particularly those that are contentious and controversial.
But I believe this apostate when she says she is afraid to return to her own family. It would put her at risk.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
“Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”
http://www.redroom.com/author/ellen-r-sheeley
BK 8:59 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
A person who has a bad experience and then over-generalizes about the source of the problem and lashes back is not a particularly admirable or notable person.
Trashy in the sense of “Hey! Look at me. I can wear a bikini top or show a bunch of cleavage as a symbol of my resistance to Islam.”
Again, women should be free to expose or cover their bodies as they see fit. It is theirs to do as they please within the constraints of local law.
I object to ignorance and lies. Both Apostate and her friend and link mate APG are reactionaries against some (true or fictional) bad experiences. These experience, while sad, are no excuse for their ignorant conclusions.
I disagree that there is anything valuble at either blog except for psych students field studying pathologies.
Muse 9:49 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
I like reading Apostate’s blog too. I couldn’t possibly disagree with her more, but I don’t think she’s off the deep-end like APG, and her posts are intelligent. I try not to comment there because I’d rather not get into a back and forth that’s not going to lead any where.
I just get really annoyed with the assertion that religious = criminal, or that if you are religious you must therefore be a misogynist. It leaves me wondering where someone like my religious grandfather, who emphasized education for his daughters just like his sons, fits in. In response to this comment, Apostate said my aunts probably never gave him a reason to display his “outdated notions of morality.” I wonder who defines “outdated.”
Its annoying because I don’t want to be in the position of saying all is well in the Muslim world when it comes to women. Its not. But neither are Muslim women there something to be pitied. They don’t deserve to be viewed as current or future victims of honor killing, waiting for benevolent western feminism to rescue them. Give their lives and their humanity more credit than that. Hell, give Muslim men more credit than thinking of them as high on a misplaced sense of honor.
Righteous indignation is deserved when its targeted towards specific bad acts, but to use it as a lens with which to view billions of people must get tiring.
Best Diplomat eh? Ha
I’m just trying to avoid studying by commenting everywhere.
Muse 10:08 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
One more thing - this whole thing has had me wondering about western notions of feminism and how it is and is not compatible with Islamic notions of feminism. What are the conflicts and where are the parallels? Still trying to mentally work it out, but for starters I dont think its an exact equivalence.
BK 10:40 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
Interesting. Please elaborate when you have a chance.
Handyman 11:38 pm on July 6, 2008 | #
She does post occasionally intelligent things there, but they are few and far between. She just comes across as angry more than anything and she dilutes whatever intelligent things she has to say with grandiose overgeneralizations and pitiful hissyfits. She’s always on this vicious quest to equate the most horrible things in the world with Islam, although its quite clear she’s pretty ignorant about a lot of it: cultures, countries, and codified practice, ignorance which doesnt stop her from making great leaps of logic as she does in the post linked above. As for the interplay between misogyny and Islam, this has been done by a lot of muslim female bloggers before with a far more reasoned perspective, although it is interesting, and maybe even, dare i say it, productive to look at this other angry side as well, albeit with a heavy grain of salt.
Muse 1:16 am on July 7, 2008 | #
BK, I’m not sure what I mean since I’m not well-informed about the history of the feminist movement, and I think you have to know its origins and how it developed to see how it can apply in the Islamic context. And, when you add the fact that “Islamic” means different things in different countries (let alone communities), it gets murkier and murkier.
I guess what bothers me is the “one-size fits all solution,” that if fighting patriarchy means one thing in the West it must therefore mean the same thing in the East. If as Muslim women, we reference the struggle to gain our rights back to the Prophet’s (pbuh) example, does that take us out of the fold of “western feminism” because we concede operating within a patriarchal structure (because we defer to a man’s example)? Is patriarchy inherently bad? If not, is it inherently a part of Islamic tradition? If it is inherently bad (read: unjust), how do we stay true to the tradition and still argue for a break from patriarchal attitudes, in a way that our new theories become a part of tradition and not just a “fad” of the day?
I don’t think I clarified anything, but these are some of the questions I’m mulling over. Would love to hear some thoughts.
Sy 5:35 am on July 7, 2008 | #
I don’t think you should sell yourself short Willow. Certainly, this apostate woman has lived in Saudi and Pakistan and uses this perspective as carte blanche authority to speak for the “oppressed” muslim woman, that doesnt make her right. There are thousands of woman who feel very differently from her and do so with not nearly as much as arrogance and far more cool-headedness than she demonstrates. Yes, she may have had a bad experience with misogyny growing up, and obviously that may have had a lot to do with patriarchal interpretation of religion/culture, however we should be wary to assign more importance to these viewpoints than they actually deserve re: misogyny and Islam. From what it sounds like, she didnt even have it as bad as many muslim women do, yet she makes it sounds like she was serially abused. I don’t have a problem with her expressing her views, nor her assertions that misogyny is b/c of Islam (however wrong-headed that is), but the way to go about changing the mindset of misogyny is not going to be hate on Islam (won’t work, and way, way too easily co-opted by the xenophobic right).
aziz 7:03 am on July 7, 2008 | #
I’ve seen this before - it’s the “recovering Catholic” syndrome.
At any rate, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is queen of this particular hill and “Al Apostate” has a long way to go to challenge her.
aziz 7:20 am on July 7, 2008 | #
The critique of Al Apostate as “trashy” seems almost a perfect validation of her arguments, though. Why attack the (easily refuted) substance of her arguments about her post when you can be lazy and insult her personally instead? This is why people like her gain traction when they represent themselves as authorities on Islam by virtue of their (selective) experiences.
I am struck by her assertion that her parents intend to kill her. Maybe it’s even true.
for some odd reason I am tempted to invite her to guest post here. It’s abad idea of course because she wouldn’t be able to restrain herself from activing civilly, and neither would the ensuing debate have any light, just heat. we an all talk pas each other from our own blogs just fine.
Apostate 9:53 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Thanks for the link, Willow. Just wanted to chime in and say that I have no intention or desire of trying to rescue Muslim women from their religion, nor do I claim to speak for them. I quite understand they’re coming from a radically different place and don’t agree with me. That doesn’t bother me - they have their own blogs and I don’t go to their blogs to tell them they don’t speak for me.
I write for my amusement and to blow off steam, not to convert people to my cause. There isn’t a cause. It’s a personal blog.
As for APG -the poor girl has taken her blog down so let’s stop ragging on her. It seems that people can’t figure out the obvious (that she’s not well). After all, one apostate is very much like another, right? We all have tits and we’re insane. Glad it’s so simple for some people.
aziz 10:01 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Apostate - thanks for stopping by. I’d like to point you to Muse’s comment above about trying to articulate the differences and parallels between Islamic and Western notions of feminism. If you are willing to engage us in a civil dialog to try and explore that issue, I think the result would be one that meets a shared goal for all of us. Please contact me at salaam at talkislam dot info if you are interested.
BK 10:45 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Aziz….if you can explain how calling someone trashy validates the indiscriminate attack on Islam…I’d listen.
As for “lazy,” that is an arbitrary ad hom just like the one you criticize about, isn’t it? All judgements are judgemental, including yours. (That is a kind way of saying your poops do stink.)
Apostate, I was really not assigning a general sweep that “I disagree with you, therefore you are “trashy.” I was noting a similarity between your and APG preoccupation with sex and revealing self-portraits and trying to understand what criticism of Islam has to with breast shots.
It was an observation. Muse took a similar (and less flammable)point further which is: should we equate and hold western feminism standards up to these kind of “feministic” expressions. Maybe they are eastern expressions and use a different standard.
Ultimately, I find you and APG both rude and dull for similar reasons.
You can’t please everyone. Try deansworld.
Willow 10:45 am on July 7, 2008 | #
I too was baffled by how often and how diligently people tried to take on APG. You’d have to be blind not to see that the woman suffers from mental illness. I’ve had two close friends with manic depressive disorder, and when they’re at their worst you have to realize that you’re not reasoning with the person, you’re reasoning with the disease. (Which is beyond fruitless.) At that point all you’re doing is making a sick person sicker.
BK 10:51 am on July 7, 2008 | #
The issue with APG, someone I took interest in and corresponded directly with, is she is incredibly smart, she shadows her actual identity with affectations of a fictional identity and she has valid points. And she sort of put out a cry for help. I was sucked in.
Gradually, she became belligerent and intolerable. And it became more clear that she was either very disturbed, manipulative or both.
molk-e-divan 10:58 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Apostate — you say you write to blow off steam. Here’s a suggestion, please stop making personal attacks and false accusations on people you don’t know. If you have a negative opinion about them, that’s different, but engaging in slanderous behavior just makes you look less credible.
APG made personal attacks and false accusations much worse than you. I’m glad Wordpress doesn’t tolerate defamation. The person she insulted NEVER SAID ANYTHING TO APG at all. All of sudden, APG gets all fired up and starts cursing her off, making up lies like a little child.
molk-e-divan 11:07 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Willow, what about those who have been seriously hurt by APG’s words?
We don’t seem to consider their feelings. Why not?
Andrea Useem 11:09 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Just to add: Willow, loved your thoughts on the role of white converts in some situations. Might be interesting for a bigger discussion at some point…
Willow 11:33 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Molk, the other day when my husband and I were walking down the street, a homeless man called him a nasty name. Was it upsetting? Sure, for a second. But we knew this guy was clearly mentally unstable. So we brushed it off. Because that is what you do when you are confronted with someone whose idea of personal boundaries, appropriateness and expression have been damaged by illness. Not that religion should even be brought into a situation amply served by common sense, but Shariah clearly says that the mentally ill cannot be held fully accountable for their actions.
So for the people desperate to be offended by APG, I’m tempted to just say get over it and be thankful for your health. It’s the internet.
Andrea: Do we really want to peek under that rock?
I will if you will…
Apostate 11:39 am on July 7, 2008 | #
Aziz, thanks for your invite, but I notice you said above that I would be unable to restrain myself. That makes me sound rather like a mare in heat, and I am sure at least BK thinks that’s all I am.
So, thanks, but no thanks.
Molk-e-Divan, I don’t know what you’re going on about. Lies? Slander? I am not conscious of making up lies about anyone. The person I was criticizing in the post that Willow linked, actually left a comment to that post. If she didn’t accuse me of lying, I’m not sure why you are.
BK 11:55 am on July 7, 2008 | #
I won’t stand in the way, Apostate. Make your points and I will stay mute in the interest of dialog. You have not understood what my criticisms are of your blog. But whatever. Maybe I am totally wrong about you. Make your case.
Don’t blame me if you don’t want to come. I am a visitor here. I will completely stand aside for you.
Please take Aziz’s invitation.
aziz 12:15 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
a mare in heat is not what I had in mind. I was thinking more of the Dawkins-esque urge to demonstrate intellectual superiority to someone because you think that they believe in something foolish. Not that you arent free to think me a fool because I proudly state my belief, but I just hope you can put aside the temptation to tell me so so we can have a civil dialog. A dialog is what i am interested in, because I perceive we have shared goals. Having now spent some hours reading your blog, I note that you advocate makin a difference, however small it may be. I think that Muse’s musing above represents an opportunity for that. My invitation to you remains open.
aziz 12:21 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
BK, Al Apostate makes arguments based on her experience, which she claims are representative enough to make her more of an authority than Willow, G, or Fatemeh about what Islam means for women. That is a position that can, with some effort, be refuted. Likewise she invokes the Qur’an and anecdotes galore to claim as “fact” that Islam is inherently misogynistic. This too is a position that can, with effort, be refuted.
Saying she is “trashy” is indeed lazy because it is an attempt to avoid refuting her on the merits of her arguments, and simply dismissing her as a person. Calling someone “trashy” is not something that we’d do in polite society, to their face or behind their back, even if it were true - and (my utter disinterest in proving it one way or another aside) there hasn’t been any evidence to suggest it is true anyway. (Don’t bother sending me “proof” I’ve missed, please).
Apostate 3:18 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
Al Apostate makes arguments based on her experience, which she claims are representative enough to make her more of an authority than Willow, G, or Fatemeh about what Islam means for women.
I just got done saying to Rowdydowdy that that is exactly the opposite of my intention.
I do not ever claim to speak for Muslim women. I speak only for myself and to some extent, those who have experienced Islam and believe as I do (that it is false).
There is no need to refute this position, since I don’t hold it. Muslim women speak for themselves. In fact, each individual Muslim woman speaks for herself. There are no monoliths here.
You will have a harder time with your assertion that Islam is not misogynistic, but you’re welcome to try.
You can comment on my blog any time you want and I will respond if appropriate. I will be honest and admit I don’t seek dialogue because it has never appeared to me to do any good (I used to engage with Muslims online quite a lot, while I was still in Saudi and had time on my hands, which I now don’t).
BK 4:04 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
Calling someone “trashy” is not something that we’d do in polite society, to their face or behind their back, even if it were true
Oh….bite me.
You big puff of hot air.
aziz 4:11 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
fair enough, but I said you believe yourself to be more of an authority on the status of Islam with respect to women than the actual muslim women I gave as examples. You’ve totally discounted the experiences of Muse and the others in your own comment threads. You even claim to know what Muse’s grandfather “probably” felt or believed.
Now, I dont hold this against you. I only object to it on the level that your logic is faulty; your experience is what you invoke to qualify your opinion, and dismiss the opinions of others without (apparently) granting them the respect that you insist they accord you. Any experience to the contrary of yours is irrelevant, or wrong. I personally think your experience is highly relevant to the issue of Islam and women (and we’ve hardly been silent on it here at Talk islam). But I don’t accept, as you seem to insist I must, that your opinion is any more valid than Muse, et al. This is the impression that your words leave; if in some commentary elsewhere you’ve qualified your position, then I will take you at your word. But I only go by what I’ve read, which is all the posts on teh front page of your blog at present writing (admittedly, I’ve not delved too far into comments, yet.)
I’m not going to waste my time or yours trying to argue with you about Islam’s inherent misogyny. No offense intended but I’ve spent enough time arguing on the Internet over the past 6 years of blogging to be interested in doing it all over again with every newbie blogger who pops up, irrespective of how articulate they are.
You dont need to believe Islam is theoretically pure in its intent to women, and I do not need to believe that Islam is inherently misogynistic, for us to find some common ground. What we both need to do (and what we have, in fact, done) is accept that muslim women do get the shaft (and we can agree to disagree about why.)
What I woudl like is a definition of feminism that we can all rally to. For the sake of you, your mother and sister in Pakistan, and my daughters here in the US.
Muse 5:28 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
I wonder about the feasibility of such an over-arching definition, once we’ve accepted that we will disagree about the reason for why Muslim women get shafted. IMO, there is no more common ground to be had between those who see Islam as the cause of it, and those that dont.
Sure, one may seek to collaborate with people with diametrically opposite views on concrete projects, but I dont see how we can reach an all-inclusive theoretical definition of feminism (or indeed, why we should). But just for kicks and mental exercise, we can start by trying to answer some of the questions I posed above
Willow 6:03 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
Can there be a unified theory of feminism when there isn’t a unified theory of womanhood? I wonder. I wonder if basic human rights for women aren’t a better place to start.
Fatemeh 6:35 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
Two cents: dismissing her or other bloggers as “angry” and “trashy” isn’t acceptable. These are code words that are often used against feminists and people of color to dismiss what they’re saying: “Oh, I’d listen to her if she wasn’t so angry.” That’s not very fair, though I feel that less aggressive tones are more conducive to productive dialogue. We wouldn’t point a finger at a Muslim blogger and say, “He’s so angry, so I don’t read his blog” when it covers relevant social issues, would we?
It’s not fair to dismiss someone’s right to be angry, though slander, libel, and defamation are NOT acceptable outlets for that anger.
What she wears doesn’t invalidate her opinion or her experience. She’s entitled to her experience, her opinions, AND her bikini top. I have to agree with Willow & Muse here: her blog is decently thought out and it’s her personal journey, despite the fact that I disagree with much of it (and get called a “Muslim apologist”–heh). We all have/had different experiences with Islam; while hers doesn’t make her more of an authority than any other Muslim woman on the planet, it shouldn’t be discounted because she’s “angry”.
The real reason I decided to comment: something Aziz said spurred me. “What we both need to do (and what we have, in fact, done) is accept that muslim women do get the shaft (and we can agree to disagree about why.)” Though, as Muse points out, it’s a bumpy road, I don’t think it’s an impossible one, especially since this is a problem that Middle Eastern / South Asian women (Muslim or not) have had with white western feminists for…uh…ever.
If we want to help Muslim women (or anyone, really), we don’t decide what’s best for them/us (whether we think that’s leaving Islam, embracing it, reforming it, whatever). We let those we want to help decide what they need to improve their situations. Like Muse said, there isn’t a “one-size fits all” solution or type of feminism, as sweet as that would be; liberation is different to different people with different circumstances. So our common ground must be the desire to improve things for Muslim women (a huge task that must be broken down) and the acceptance that they/we know what’s best for them/ourselves.
BK 7:12 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
I wonder if I would get a closer reading if I took a snapshot of my package in a banana hammock and called myself Mr. Apostate Guy?
People who criticize me for summarily dismissing someone behind a moniker BY summarily dismissing ME behind a moniker need a head check.
Fortunately, this is not about me.
What I said was Apostate over generalizes about the source of her problems (Islam for Misogyny:Culture for Revealed Religion:etc) and sets off to attack everyone associated with her mistaken target. Doing so does a diservice to her and to everyone else involved. And she is not coy about it.
I noted that she also speaks about sex and shows some moderately revealing pictures which reminds me of APG and set me to wonder if there was something going on there.
I call that trashy. Prefer “frisky?” “Libidinous?” Whatever.
We should give everyone a closer read and not rush to be dismissive. I read closely to see what Apostate’s issues were.
The feminism thing is another subject. It is an interesting topic.
Apostate 9:56 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
BK, you’re rather obsessed with that one backlit picture of mine, aren’t you? I’ve been blogging for a year and a half and I have posted one - count it, one - picture of me that can be called “revealing.” And you can’t get past it.
I don’t overgeneralize about the source of my problems. My problems are legion and you don’t hear about most of them. The ones I often discuss relate to Islam, and I discuss them because they have wider implications for others and it’s a story that is important and often goes untold.
And I rarely attack people, yet you’re making it sound like that’s the main purpose of my blog.
So I speak about sex sometimes. Freaks you out, eh? I think you’re wrong, BK, when you say this is not about you. I think this is all about you and your hang ups around sex and women’s bodies.
Are you BQ, by the way, the guy who plagued me on my blog until I blocked you?
And WTF are you trying to imply about APG now? Honestly, one would think your superior Islamic ethics would teach you a little compassion.
(And Fatemah, thanks for rising to my defense: You’re fairer to me than I was to you. And thanks to Muse as well.)
Apostate 10:02 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
I’m not going to waste my time or yours trying to argue with you about Islam’s inherent misogyny. No offense intended but I’ve spent enough time arguing on the Internet over the past 6 years of blogging to be interested in doing it all over again with every newbie blogger who pops up, irrespective of how articulate they are.
Uh, Aziz? You were the one who invited me to “dialogue” with you and I’m the one who begged off. Remember? Upthread, this morning, not very long ago.
Jesus Christ - Muslim men make my head spin. No wonder I stopped engaging.
BK 11:29 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
I’m not BQ. I am not obsessed and I am happy to move on.
No further insults.
Sabir 11:38 pm on July 7, 2008 | #
Apostate and others like her acknowledge that “Islam is whatever Muslims make it.” If that’s the case, then why do they castigate reformers who seek to promote more progressive modes of Islamic thought as “apologists” who practice “sophistry”?
Apostate characterizes the efforts of liberal reformers as an “attempt to take an ethical philosophy which can earn on its own merits the respect of any ordinary, empathic human being and retroject it into their scripture to give it an illusion of dogmatic authority”, and asserts that such endeavors are “ultimately futile”. But she glaringly fails to realize that the country she grew up in, Saudi Arabia (which apparently played a huge role in shaping her outlook), is the product of just such a campaign; its outlook was inverted, but its methodology was identical. There was no Saudi Arabia or Wahhabism or Mutawwa prior to the eighteenth century. Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab characterized himself as a religious reformer and fought to overturn prevailing norms, not reinforce them. And were it not for British opportunism and the discovery of oil, the joint venture between Wahhab and the Saudi clan may never have been successful. These are facts. Wahhab and others like him bolstered their claims to authenticity by exploiting the fears and insecurities Muslims developed in the face of an increasingly powerful and imperialistic West, a dynamic in which people are naturally drawn to value systems through which they can consciously or unconsciously assert an identity in opposition to that of the unwelcome hegemon.
Her failure to recognize the effect of this dynamic exposes the fatal inconsistency in her analysis; apparently, according to Apostate, whereas moderate reformers are “apologists” who seek to “retroject” modern ideas into centuries-old scripture and thereby give them “an illusion of dogmatic authority”, fundamentalist narratives evolved in a vacuum and were unaffected by such external trends and forces. Ironically, Apostate’s mentality is thus identical to that of the fundamentalists she condemns.
Willow 12:09 am on July 8, 2008 | #
Aziz is a very reasonable person. You’ve stated openly that you hate him–us, in fact–and everything he/we believe in. That’s not a criticism, it’s just an observation based on what I’ve read on your blog. (For reference: http://apostate.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/righteous-anger/) Not many people could get through a conversation with someone who hates him without getting at least a little angry. Given what you have said of ideas we hold very dear, I think Aziz has been quite civil.
You’ve said there are no monoliths but your condemnation of Islam is monolithic. Fatemeh and Muse and I have defended you in spite of this inconsistency; surely you can forgive Aziz a much smaller one.
Having said that, it’s true: we–by which I mean this particular community–have indeed had this very argument dozens of times with dozens of people. You are quite eloquent and pointed in your criticisms which is why I linked to you–Muslims who would like to make things a little better and still remain Muslim are in a fragile position, and I think it’s useful that we be kept sharp. Keeping sharp means thinking over and answering criticisms from intelligent opposition along with the yahoos and the racists. But though eloquent and intelligent, you are far from being the first person to make these arguments, which you doubtless know. Beyond the hat-tip to your blog–which was quite sincere–I don’t think we have anything useful to offer each other. It would be an insult to your experience to try to convince you that you are wrong about gestalt Islam; it would be an insult to ours for you to try to convince us that we are.
You and I are exactly the same age right down to the season, by the by.
aziz 5:00 am on July 8, 2008 | #
Thanks, Willow.
Apostate, I said the same thing you said: debating about Islam and women is pointless. I invited you to dialog about finidng common ground instead. I think teh distinction is elementary and obvious. That you’ve proved me right in my initial comment (720am 7/7), ie you are unable to put down that axe of yours that needs grinding, in service of a larger cause, is unfortunate.
Muse, despite the failure here, I still think that there is some common ground that can be reached. I agree that a “definition” of feminism which would satisfy Apostate and us at once is probably too broad to be useful. But we are also talking semantics in a sense - since we clearly DO have a shared goal, then if we can articulae that, our “definition” of feminism simply becomes “political activism intended to further progress towards that goal”.
I think that the great tragedy of people like apostate is that they utterly ignore and marginalize the work of genuine reformers in Saudi and other Islamic countries, who are swimming against the current of tradition and often put themselves in personal danger to try and move their societies one iota at a time towards a more liberal position re: women. A great shared project for us and a hypothetical Apostate who was not blinded by male-hatred would be to identify these reformers and publicize their work routinely. Maybe we can get started on that ourselves and people like Apostate will come around. Who are the reformers in Saudi that we should be payin attention to?
apostate 10:58 am on July 8, 2008 | #
Willow, fair enough, and it was never my intention to give the impression that I am interested in any kind of a dialogue. I think my blog makes clear that I am not. I agree that we have nothing to offer each other. I stepped in to offer corrections/clarifications to my viewpoints, but I see (reading Sabir) that this is a hopeless task, so I will desist.
Thanks again for your civility.
sophister 11:44 am on July 8, 2008 | #
Thanking Muslims for their civility, to me it seems, is almost like calling an ethnic minority “articulate”.
Willow 11:53 am on July 8, 2008 | #
She wasn’t thanking Muslims, though. She was thanking me.
sista 11:54 am on July 8, 2008 | #
BK:
“I reject Islam, and these are my tits.”
Who the hell cares?
Isn’t it obvious that you do?
Willow 12:05 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
BK has very nicely stepped aside and dropped that particular conflict. For someone as easily and vocally irritated as he is, I think that’s an accomplishment. Which we should honor by refraining from poking him with sticks.
sista 12:17 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
Willow. You mean I shouldn’t bare mine…aw!!… just when I was getting into this!!
But as I agree with you,I am…
…go..went..gone.
BK 12:23 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
Thanks Willow. Everyone is so nice here.
It’s creepy.
There are some interesting take-aways from this whole mélange:
1. Feminism needs to be better understood. Muse made the point interesting. I was merely pointing out that Apostate and APG, two Pakistani women who aggressively reject Islam appear to partially express the rejection by asserting sexual freedom. Some would call that a valid expression of their point. I would call it off the mark. A reaction to misogyny masquerading as Islam. Further, outing ones sexuality as an expression of emacipation from male dominated sexual society seems confused to me. An abberation.
Whatever.
2. Islam is what people do. This makes the revelation of Islam and the idea of a pure and perfect revelation somewhat relative. “Submission to Allah” can mean different things to different people. Some express that by charity and humility. Others by blowing up buildings and themselves. All equally valid?
Hardly.
This is one of the compelling problems that Muslims must face. There is a loss of standard. One can easily say that honor killings and FGM are supported or refuted by Islam with some effort. There are no clear standards because Muslims don’t rigorously enforce standards without becoming subservient to dogma.
This should also be discussed and resolved among atleast a larger number of devotees to religion.
Ayan Hirsi Ali does not speak for MY Islam.
aziz 1:11 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
heh. That’s our goal: to nice everyone to death.
BK in principle I agree with your point 1, I just took issue with the way you expressed it as an attack earlier. I think that there’s certainly some irony in a woman choosing to express her freedom from misogyny by donning a bikini. Not that I’m particularly inclined to discourage her in any way from doing so.
In fact I am curious what Apostate would make of that old essay of mine about burkas and bikinis…
molk-e-divan 1:33 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
“Jesus Christ - Muslim men make my head spin.”
That’s what the educated call a generalization. Look at flaws within other groups, but not within your own, that’s how it works, right? Look at the labels and not the individuals?
molk-e-divan 2:08 pm on July 8, 2008 | #
Willow,
I understand what you mean, and I agree with you. But what I don’t understand is that if someone doesn’t make any personal attacks on you, then why in the world would you make personal attacks and insults against them?
I personally believe Apostate should have a right to believe in whatever she believes. She may criticize Islam and Muslim women all she wants, but every mature and considerate human being knows that you can’t make false assumptions and accusations towards someone when you don’t even know them.
You can’t deny the experiences that a person has with a religion just because you don’t believe in it. The majority of Muslims find peace and beauty in Islam — it is a source of strength, Love, and wisdom for them. I have friends who have left Islam, and they are living their lives peacefully and happily, they even still have Muslim friends. They don’t devote their time spreading hatred about it.
To each their own. Let people ~Be~. There are religious extremists in every gorup.
Happiness and Peace never hurt anyone.