skimming Self and Sovereignty: Individual and Community in South Asian Islam Since 1850. mentions a self-avowed “half-muslim” urdu poet from the early 19th century who drinks wine but does not consume pork. so what’s up with muslims and alcohol? my reading of history shows that elite muslims drink alcohol quite often; to the point of making a note when a particular caliph did not drink. jehangir and a recent king of saudi arabia were alcoholics. i believe there are references to wine in babur’s poetry. has alcohol consumption actually decreased in frequency as islam has become more populist???
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muse 1:00 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
You must be speaking about Ghalib and his famous quip that he’s a “half-Muslim” because he doesn’t eat pork but does drink.
Another story about Ghalib and wine: A man once strongly condemned wine drinking in G’s presence, and said that the prayers of the wine drinker are never answered. G said, “if a man has wine, what else does he need to pray for?”
Ghalib was the O.G. for sure.
There’s still plenty of alcohol drinking that goes on in Pakistan (can’t speak about other places) at all levels of society. Much of it is hidden though so I wonder how it can be quantified.
razib 2:59 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
yeah, ghalig.
Much of it is hidden though so I wonder how it can be quantified.
what is the alcohol made out of??? you could probably deduce from stuff which “disappears” out of the supply chain of grains and what not….
i have wondered if perhaps muslims would simply purchase alcohol from non-muslims in their local region which continue to produce. this happens in the arab world, where xtians run liquor stores which muslims frequent. not as much of an issue in pakistan where there are not so many non-muslims….
Lawrence of Arabia 7:05 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
there is a populist element to the christian bans on alcohol that you find as well (e.g., as supported by southern baptists or methodists), though in the case of christianity the ban on alcohol has no basis within the biblical texts.
Ikram 8:46 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
“Ghalig”?! It’s like saying Paradise Lost was written by some guy named “John Bilton”.
Anyway, poets are drunks. My parents would host Urdu poets at our house, and they would often (very discreetly) carry around a small flask. Everyone was supposed to pretend not to notice the booze on their breath.
My favorite Pakistani drunkard was Sindh Chief Minister Jam Sadiq Ali. When the rumours of his alcohol consumption became too liud to ignore, he issued a statement that he only drank for medicinal purposes, with a doctor’s prescrition.
Jam Sadiq died of cirhossis of the liver in 1992. Family should sue his doctor for malpractice.
As for tee-totalling, it’s roughly the same in Protestant America — a marker for the prim and proper middle-class. Hard to believe that, only 75 years ago, there was prohibition in America.
Willow 8:58 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
I think it’s clear that different religious laws attain popular importance at different times. I think it could very well be that during ages when ground water was often unsafe to drink, there were Muslims who thought little of drinking liquor. (There’s even a hadith–I want to say from Sahih Muslim, but I’m not positive–that says if you’re given a choice between drinking wine and dying of thirst, drink the wine. I could see this being stretched by convenience to include instances when water was undrinkable.)
In the modern age we stress the prohibition on liquor to a degree that seems a little artificial…I mean, look at us, we’re as shocked by the suggestion that a caliph drank wine as we would be if he were exposed as the leader of a child pornography ring.
aziz 10:35 am on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
(welcome, Ikram! I’ve lost your email, would you mind dropping me a line? salaam at talkislam dot info)
I think we need to make a distinction between the prohibition on liquor and the – ahem – interpretation of that prohibition. There are other prohibitions, on non-halal-prepared food, on food like pork that can never be halal, etc. Personally I am an absolutist with respect to alcohol, and pork, but do dine on non-halal meat quite often. You can make an argument based on this hadith or that as to why this is more harmful than that to try and rationlaize your behavior, but it’s just a rationalization in the end. I would eat only halal meat if it were more convenient to do so. But its not, so I don’t. Its that trivial and fickle. Luckily for me, the thought of pork and alcohol is sufficiently abhorrent that total abstinence from these is not difficult, I do not feel any temptation when presented with pepperoni (I’m not even that into the Turkey bacon action). This reasoning for why this and why not that is utterly subjective.
Acknowledging that subjectivity is I think the minimum level of self-honesty we must enforce. At that point we can admit that a prohibition is not something to interpret, but to obey – and then our failure to comply is a matter of normal human failing, which we can strive to correct, rather than the result of complex hadith-driven legalisms.
I think few of us expect ourselves to be totally without sin. But neither should we be complacent about it.
razib 12:32 pm on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
I do not feel any temptation when presented with pepperoni (I’m not even that into the Turkey bacon action). This reasoning for why this and why not that is utterly subjective.
food taboos & preferences tend to crystallize between 5-10. this is probably one reason that muslims, hindus, etc. who are atheists as adults still often do not eat “taboo” foods (they might try them once or two just to do it).
thanks for the comments. my view of islam is one of a pretty naive child in terms of experience, so there might have been things going on that i didn’t grok….
Willow 12:39 pm on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
I love turkey bacon. A world without some kind of bacon is a world not worth living in.
I too abstain completely from alcohol and pork, but eat non-halal meat fairly regularly. (There aren’t any halal butchers within a convenient distance of our house.) However, in the laundry list of hypocrisies and social issues that need sussing out in modern Islam, I must confess alcohol is not very high on my list.
bdr 2:14 pm on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
“The Only Beer in Pakistan”
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/index.php?cl=7674830
aziz 2:47 pm on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
mebbe this is exhibit A of self-rationalizing behavior, but I dont see a muslim’s failure to abstain from some, but not all, of that which is prohibited as a hypocrisy, per se. Hypocrisy suggests something quite different about intention/niyat. I think most of us have good niyat on these things, its just that we are simply human.
bdr 2:48 pm on May 12, 2008 Permalink |
“The Only Beer in Pakistan”
http://tinyurl.com/6xg3kr
Willow 12:15 am on May 13, 2008 Permalink |
Aziz I totally agree when it comes to the average person. When I said hypocrisy I was really talking about the so-called guardians of Islam (like this caliph who started the debate), who enforce one law and live by another.
thabet 6:03 pm on June 24, 2008 Permalink |
has alcohol consumption actually decreased in frequency as islam has become more populist???
By all accounts (or those I have come across), debates over alcohol were quite lively in early Islam.