aziz & i have disagreed, if mildly, about the shia:sunni::catholic:protestant analogy. as i have noted, all analogies have their weaknesses. but reading God’s Rule – Government and Islam: Six Centuries of Medieval Islamic Political Thought i am struck by a shia & protestant similarity in schismastic tendencies and eruptions of antimonianism. interestingly, the most “catholic” of the shia, the ismaili, exhibit both of these tendencies to the greatest degee of the shia themselves….
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Willow 11:03 am on May 7, 2008 Permalink |
I think we’re talking about two different aspects of Shi’a, here…politically they resemble Protestants (in analogy), but doctrinally they resemble Catholics. The idea of heritable holiness, institutionalized clerical structure (through which wealth is channeled), less emphasis on iconoclasm (in Iran there are iconographic portraits of Imam Ali and/or Imam Husayn in almost every shop, some of which are almost indistinguishable from the portraits of Jesus found all over the Catholic Mediterranean), the importance of passion plays/martyrdom…many, many similarities. Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed a lot of converts who come to Islam from Catholicism are drawn to Shi’a (though some don’t identify as such bc of Sunni pressure), while those who come from Protestantism are drawn to Sunnah.
aziz 2:30 pm on May 7, 2008 Permalink |
mighty zarquon, how many books do you read simultaneously, Razib?
Time for you to start your own Essential Bookshelf thread!
I am not clear on what you mean by “eruptions of antimoniasm” – unless you mean, being *accused* of antiomianism. I am assuming that the word in this context means “above the [religious] law”.
I dont think Catholics are all that immune from schismatic tendencies, either. Their schisms are just older. And as far as Roman Orthodox Catholics go, their schisms are all under the surface instead of out in the open.
Obviously, Iran is a major center of gravity of Shi’ism, so its not fair to exclude them while making analogies between Shi’a and Catholics/protestanism. However, even in Iran there is still a rigid hierarchy of presumed divine authority from which religious authority ultimately flows, and on that basis Iranian Twelver Shi’ism is just as Catholic in structure as the rest of Shi’ism. I don’t see how you can really deny the general accuracy of the analogy – from a doctrinal, not political perspective, as Willow rightly clarifies – of Shi’a:Sunni :: Catholic:Protestant.
razib 7:40 pm on May 7, 2008 Permalink |
I am not clear on what you mean by “eruptions of antimoniasm” – unless you mean, being *accused* of antiomianism. I am assuming that the word in this context means “above the [religious] law”.
this is a fair point. i assume that the author relies on texts which are filtered through a sunni lens disproportionately because that’s just who wrote most of the texts. the antimonianism i’m speaking of are groups who reject common islamic practices such as abstaining from pork & alcohol, and violating those taboos during ramadan. some of the points though were brought up in mullahs on the mainframe. additionally, some ostensibly shia groups such as the alawites and bekteshi sects do today engage in violation of these islamic taboos. and this tendency toward antimonianism isn’t limited to any particular sect of islam; but i would argue that its breakout among “shia” groups is probably related to the historically more marginalized, ergo revolutionary, orientation of them vis-a-vis the non-shia, who became what we know as sunnis (mostly, excluding groups like the ibadi who are neither shia nor sunni).
I dont think Catholics are all that immune from schismatic tendencies, either. Their schisms are just older. And as far as Roman Orthodox Catholics go, their schisms are all under the surface instead of out in the open.
yes, they are under the surface. that being said, the roman and eastern churches have healed the breach of the original 11th century schism. and the catholic popes have of late even reached out to the anti-chalcedonian churches of the east; e.g., armenian and coptic, etc. in other words, the schisms are constrains to being movements within the churches and do not generally realize themselves into an institutional explicit framework. in protestantism though the process of fissure has become the norm; e.g., evangelical luthern vs. missouri synod lutheran, dutch reformed vs. traditionalist calvinist, etc. to me this resembles the consistent fracturing of the ismailis into sect after sect, or the variety of shia groups in general. in contrast, the sunni groups have a wide range of variation but remain formally less differentiated….
I don’t see how you can really deny the general accuracy of the analogy – from a doctrinal, not political perspective, as Willow rightly clarifies – of Shi’a:Sunni :: Catholic:Protestant.
many of the “protestant” characteristics that willow alludes to are actually characteristic more of the reformed and radical reformations; not the lutheran or anglican one. the analogy might be useful for american christians, who are bathed in the milieu of radical and reformed protestantism, but as a point of accuracy i’m not willing to neglect the numerical reality of the more catholic strains of protestantism. in other words, those who analogize sunnis to protestants often specifically fix on the similarities to calvinism (e.g., predestination, extreme iconoclasm, more thorough rejection of clerisy, etc.). so i think the analogy asymmetrical. perhaps sunni:shia::calvinist:catholic might be more accurate….
razib 7:59 pm on May 7, 2008 Permalink |
Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed a lot of converts who come to Islam from Catholicism are drawn to Shi’a (though some don’t identify as such bc of Sunni pressure), while those who come from Protestantism are drawn to Sunnah.
this is a fascinating point. i’d like to see some social science exploration of it. i will admit that though i’ve always been an atheist my cultural background is vanilla-sunni (my patrilineage is a long one of hanafi ulams), and when i encounter a calvinist argument i feel a familiarity. in contrast, the iconoclasm of catholicism is profoundly alien. but, that might be my greater new england cultural background speaking as well….
VICTORIA 2:27 pm on May 24, 2008 Permalink |
Just an observation of a very superficial kind-
nut watching the self flagellation of shi’a during ashura (not sure if it’s spelled correctly) i couldn’t help but be reminded of catholci flagellants.